Wonder why they hate us? Take a look.
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Posted on: 21-02-07 20:27:48
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Originally posted by hemzer
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Both of us, much like you, are quite happy and punch drunk with the economy built on oil. We do not see a need for more adventure
Finally, you admit.
You have gotta let GW know about this, that there was really no need for this.
All it did was spewed more hate towards us.
On the contrary I've maintained all along that , this happened because we are punch drunk on cheap oil. If the oil has to be kept cheap this war had to come...and other wars after this.
You are the one living in denial that your habits have caused this war. IF you me and my neighbour have to live in a 'civilized'(or so we claim) way, in the west this war is a long time in coming. Like I said before...the only way to change this is to change the way we 'civilized' folks live i.e by NOT depending on cheap oil supply.
Its not about 'hate' its about the way we buit our economy on cheap oil. No need for cheap oil=no need for war based on those needs. There will still be war for other needs though.
I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous.
. Having to repeat the same things to someone who is hell bent on propaganda.-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Originally posted by hemzer
So you think that 9/11 bunch really did fly those plans for reasons other than hate towards the west? .
'Planes'
. Alqaeda was formed long before 9/11. There were numerous attacks on American interests before Iraq or Afghanistan. Read up 
.They have a reason to 'hate' us not because either side is 'bad' or 'good' but that they are fighting for their own system to be imposed in that part of the world. They want to impose their brand of islam over that area contrary to the interests of many others(e.g: kurds,shia, christians etc). Anyway if there was no oil in the middle east...they would have probably got their way...since the west would not be interested.
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Originally posted by hemzer
You clearly said that the problem lies within.
.
I said no such thing...Its a pity you do not recognise sarcasm.
If the Iraqis were united there would not be a 'green zone'.
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On the contrary I've maintained all along that , this happened because we are punch drunk on cheap
oil. If the oil has to be kept cheap this war had to come...and other wars after this.
It was cheaper before we destroyed Iraq, and caused ME unstability? How did this war help,
except cause us to be hated all over the world?
oil is a depleting commodity so it can never be kept cheaper than it was yesterday.
It is cheap only when Big oil decides to give it you for cheap, temporarily of course... (on occasions like...... just
before the midterm elections, did you notice that?.. of course it wasnt highlighted on CNN was
it?)
They are taking us for fools!!
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You are the one living in denial that your habits have caused this war.
Nope, I agree with you....we went to war with the iraqis for your and my forbidden habits... but one thing I
dont say is that the Iraqis are somehow preprogrammed and have forgotten to hate us for it? or they dint
notice it? hmmmmm....never thought of it that way...!
It really confuses me of what I know about basic human psychology & behaviour. I must have failed
to learn much!
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IF you me and my neighbour have to live in a 'civilized'(or so we claim) way, in the west this war
is a long time in coming. Like I said before...the only way to change this is to change the way we
'civilized' folks live i.e by NOT depending on cheap oil supply.
...and where should this change start?............
Id say, at the Top. The top should get out of the habit of making wars for MIC & big oil
profits.Thats where it should start. They have our wealth in the form of our taxes. This is given to them in trust, that they use it for the good of society.
Unless that happens it does not gives you and me or any one a chance to steer thought in the right direction for a start.
What did you think? You just dump your car and walk to work tomorrow and all this greed, killing
and looting done by our corporates and govts will stop?
Change has to come from all quarter. Govts, corporates and citizens should actively.... be aware,
push awareness and education to the masses, instead of lying to us. The men at the helm of power
have the ultimate responsibility to start to make big impacts. These wars of choice are not the
solution, they do not help us in any way but make intermediate profits for the elite and generate hate towards
us. We (you & me) here are just cannon fodder' for this cause, we are the ones who get planes driven into, we are
the ones who loose limbs to resistance bombers, we are the ones who will be forced to send our
children to be killed for elite profits. If this is the path we take.
Please, this is not a Democracy. Please, get out of the mentality that Big oil and Govts
institutions are looking after us and our oil consuming habits when they wage wars and that we can safely fall asleep in the arms of our leaders with
that thought. They are actually giving us just enough of their "kill" as long as you and I are in servitude
to them.
The oil dependent infrastructure, which will self destruct naturally is already in place here in
the west and many other places. It has nothing to do with being "civilized". It was not created by you and me alone hence it cant be solved by you and
me alone. It was created by all of us including the elite, over generations & decades in time. This is a natural thing. It was
created to be efficient. Going forward from here, how we sustain this efficiency in the advent of a shortage of a resource
that it is based on is something we all have to be in on, including corporates and govts most
importantly because our political structure have made it such that they are the ones who wield the
most powers, thanks to us.
So, how are we (you and me) going to make a change, How do we move it foward keeping it with the
same if not improving it to better efficiency? I do not have the answer and I dont think you do either. Its a
process that can take many people of higher intelligence and decades of time again...... but
are we moving in the right direction together by making wars and robbing others?
Where are the people who we "supposedly" elect to "supposedly" lead us in the right direction, taking us today?
Dont get me wrong, this is not about blaming our govt, blaming you, blaming me or anyone. Its
about collectively being responsible and making the conscious choice of whether You want to kill
and rob others for a depleting resource like neanderthals or use our cognitive abilities to make
for ourselves to provide the right environment for indigenous inventions, discoveries and
evolution as we transistion through time.
Or should we just stand by and clap and cheer about how noble and self sacrificing we are when our
leaders go after more oil using us cannon fodder?
You and I know we will face dooms day... kill or no kill for oil, if we dont percieve that its a
resource we cannot depend on forever.
The best we can do is start moving in the right direction and stop killing and robbing and using
lame excuses to do so. It is a setback to human evolution on any scale you see it.
I abhor the fact that its OK with you to kill for cheap oil and your statement that we will all
face dooms day if not for robbing others and so we are helpless and must follow our govts like sheep without thought.
To top that....you say the victim in this case dosnt really care and wont Hate us for it? What are
they, a glutton for punishment?
Bottomline, where we are now is we (you and me) are hated because this is being done in our name,
under the guise of liberation, democracy, WMD, safe world and a lot of other humbug....
This is not about being leftist or right wing, it is our right and duty as a citizen to be aware and make others aware and
hence cause change in thinking or else we are simply as good as sheep for slaughter
for both sides.
If one cant even recognize that our unjust and unwarranted aggression on anyone
can cause that "anyone" at the minimum to "Hate us" then we are no better than good, fat, lazy
sheep ripe for slaughter.
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'Planes' . Alqaeda was formed long before 9/11.
So?.... what is your context here to the "hate" we have perpetuated? All I can see is we have
another group that hates us.
It would be wise on your part to read up on why they were formed?
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There were numerous attacks on American interests before Iraq or Afghanistan. Read up .
again, ......what is your context here to the "Hate" we have perpetuated?
It would be fair for me to ask you to read up on why there were so?
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They have a reason to 'hate' us.....
You have a point here that I agree with.
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not because either side is 'bad' or 'good' but that they are fighting for their own system to be
imposed in that part of the world.
So if according to you it isnt good or bad then what is the problem here?
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They want to impose their brand of islam over that area contrary to the interests of many
others(e.g: kurds,shia, christians etc).
The ME had a civilization dating 2000 BC, ..... are we the ones going to teach them how to
live?.
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Anyway if there was no oil in the middle east...they would have probably got their way...since the
west would not be interested.
OK, so we are making it an issue to mask the oil pillaging? again ..... I know of no country that
will not hate the perpetrator of a pillaging.
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Originally posted by hemzer
You clearly said that the problem lies within.
.
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I said no such thing...Its a pity you do not recognise sarcasm.
Sorry, I dint pick up on that.... sarcasm bit....(but you do have to go back and read your post)
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If the Iraqis were united there would not be a 'green zone'.
This, I have to admit is the funniest of all..It reminds me of another phrase "They hate our way
of life".....and you call me a GW clone!!
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Originally posted by hemzer
Nope, I agree with you....we went to war with the iraqis for your and my forbidden habits... but one thing I
dont say is that the Iraqis are somehow preprogrammed and have forgotten to hate us for it? or they dint
notice it? hmmmmm....never thought of it that way...!
It really confuses me of what I know about basic human psychology & behaviour. I must have failed
to learn much!
I know you are confused
. Lets have a look at the Iraqis and how the war has worked out for them. Arab, 75–80%; Kurdish, 15-20%; Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5%. Of these lets have a fiurther look at the biggest groups.1) The Kurds(approx15 % of population): The biggest beneficiaries of the war. They have their own autonomous region. Which is the ONLY kurdish controlled region in the whole world. They have got rid of a dictator who had absolute control over them. they are now part of a power sharing structure in Iraq(FOR THE FIRST TIME). So they are not hating us no matter what your personal propaganda beliefs are. Infact the kurdish peshmerga have been an integral ally of the US/Iraqi security system.
2)Shite Arabs(approx 55%): The war worked very well for them because they are in control of their destinies for the first time. They are very happy to be rid of saddam. However they are further divided into those who are being used by Iran and those who are not.
3)Sunni Arabs(approx 30%): Biggest losers in this due to the fact that they were the biggest beneficiaries of Saddams years in power. The Sunni minority controlled the majority all these years and are not happy about the loss of the power. If there is any 'hating' this group has the reason to. However this group is split up into factions too. Some of them can live with the diminished power(that is in keeping with the demographics). Some are being used by the Sunni states to weaken Irans percieved growth due to the Shia control of Iraq.
So we can conclude that the majority of the Iraqis are not actively hating us infact they have benefited from the arrangements. That and the attacks on civilians instead of the US military should clear up your confusion a bit
. Right now the fight there is about the spoils of war. The majority are happy that Saddam is ousted.Quote:
...and where should this change start?............
etc etc etc
I abhor the fact that its OK with you to kill for cheap oil and your statement that we will all
face dooms day if not for robbing others and so we are helpless and must follow our govts like sheep without thought.
I did not say its OK. I said that its the standards the whole world is playing by. The economy of all the countries is built on oil....as such all of them HAVE to play the same game.
Is it OK?...definitely not. In the longterm it will only lead to more wars(like I already mentioned). The solution does not lie in US alone changing our ways...humanity has to do it en mass. Your insistence that only the west back out will only put the west at a disadvantage in the battle for self interests. Unless that is what you want. What is your plan to get the rest of the world away fom oil and the power play? What is your plan to make the citizens of the other countries aware like you claim to do in the west? Try that in China and Iran and you'll be counting your missing toenails
If(note: not that Iagree) we go by your simplistic assumptions w.r.t 'hate'...Small groups who are losing in this battle for self interests have a reason to 'hate' the winners. Your insistence that the west unilaterally agrees not to engage in this battle, if carried out, will only ensure that we(the west) will be doing the hating in the future. Its not a cure for 'hate' but rather a transfer of 'hate' from one set of losers(whoever you think the current victims are) to another(us the future victims and losers in the power play).
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So if according to you it isnt good or bad then what is the problem here?
LOL...we've been thru this. Survival of the fittest.
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The ME had a civilization dating 2000 BC, ..... are we the ones going to teach them how to
live?.
No we are just keeping the oil secure. If the oil were'nt a factor...we would not be there.
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OK, so we are making it an issue to mask the oil pillaging? again ..... I know of no country that
will not hate the perpetrator of a pillaging.
There is no 'country' hating anybody...there are only disparate factions fighting for their own self interests there. Exactly, which unified country is 'hating' us? There are as many factions that are siding with us as with others. Its not a west VS middle east or west VS arabs like you make it seem. Its world politics...nothing is black and white like you think(or base your propaganda on). Nor is it 'pillaging' considering that many Arabs/middleasterners are themselves allied with the west. Rather, its a play between those who have the upper hand and those who dont.
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This, I have to admit is the funniest of all..It reminds me of another phrase "They hate our way
of life"
LOL! Dunno how you draw that relationship by my statement that if the Iraqis were united the US army would never have been able to construct a 'green zone' in Baghdad and hold it for all these years. There would not be the current chaos either...of them killing each other. The number of US killed in the war and the time since is smaller than the number of Iraqis killing each other in a month or two. Its not an effective way to hate us, by killing their own, is it?
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So we can conclude that the majority of the Iraqis are not actively hating us infact they have
benefited from the arrangements. That and the attacks on civilians instead of the US military
should clear up your confusion a bit . Right now the fight there is about the spoils of war. The
majority are happy that Saddam is ousted.
So I guess then its \"mission accomplished\"....time to pack our bags and leave, wont you say?
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I did not say its OK. I said that its the standards the whole world is playing by. The economy of
all the countries is built on oil....as such all of them HAVE to play the same game.
I dont see China or Russia attacking Iran or Iraq or propping up the Saudi puppets. So its us who are not playing by the rules.
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LOL...we've been thru this. Survival of the fittest.
right, Did you try that little experiment I suggested with your neighbour?
Just let him know its only \"Survival of the fittest\" he should understand be ok with it.
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Is it OK?...definitely not. In the longterm it will only lead to more wars(like I already
mentioned). The solution does not lie in US alone changing our ways...humanity has to do it en
mass. Your insistence that only the west back out will only put the west at a disadvantage in the
battle for self interests. Unless that is what you want. What is your plan to get the rest of the
world away fom oil and the power play? What is your plan to make the citizens of the other
countries aware like you claim to do in the west? Try that in China and Iran and you'll be
counting your missing toenails
How come we have the capacity to intiate greedy wars that cost us billions against other countries and
not be able to initiate and lead a positive constructive engagement with the same zeal? Dont you see this as a moral lacking?
How does it become a disadvantage to us if we dont start a war of greed? I dont see Russia or
China starting wars with oil rich nations to rob them?
...again you are making the same excuse of, ....\"if I dont rob you some else will....again try that
experiment with your neighbour and let us know here how it worked out.\"
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No we are just keeping the oil secure. If the oil were'nt a factor...we would not be there
Secure.....???? why?
according to you, They do not hate us right?
So we should just be able to walk in and pick up a barrel of oil when ever our tanks go dry? You see
\"they\" are too busy killing each other,right?
Why would they bother with some black fluid we take, right?
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Exactly, which unified country is 'hating' us? There are as many factions that are siding with us
as with others. Its not a west VS middle east or west VS arabs like you make it seem.
First, no body has to be unified to hate a thief.
Secondly, now you admit we are siding with factions in the violence, this is contrary to your
earlier statement that we are not inciting sectarian violence. How can we not if we are on one side or the other?
So you just admitted to the fact that we are liking this sectarian strife and we will keep it alive by covert means
in order to distract the people of iraq from the pillaging of their oil... else we have no business siding with anyone there.
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Nor is it 'pillaging' considering that many Arabs/middleasterners are themselves allied with the
west.
Then there shouldnt have been much problems signing this oil deal outide the green zone should there?
Or distributing a copy the other ministers earlier than the last minute.
They dint have to hire US corporates to write this up either.
This is a deal written up for thievery.
There is much more to this, you have to read up. This cannot be found on CNN.
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LOL! Dunno how you draw that relationship by my statement that if the Iraqis were united the US
army would never have been able to construct a 'green zone' in Baghdad and hold it for all these
years.
yes, agree there. We would be dealing with them in a civilized way then.
.....but who knows, either that or like animals we could use your other theory \"Survival of the fittest\" and go to war.
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The number of US killed in the war and the time since is smaller than the number of Iraqis killing
each other in a month or two.
Yes, As long as we keep this killing going on...that oil deal should push thru safe and sound, right?
....and of course when Shia and Sunni figure out that they are fighting over a hollow barrel which
contained oil before we pillaged it, guess who they are going to hate?
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Originally posted by hemzer
So I guess then its "mission accomplished"....time to pack our bags and leave, wont you say?
Huh? Are you looking for a contructive debate or just come backs? I did not say that ousting Saddam was the only reason for being there. What I did say that the majority(according to the ethnic breakup) are happy Saddam is ousted. Can you refute that or are you going to stick to the hollow comebacks?
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I dont see China or Russia attacking Iran or Iraq or propping up the Saudi puppets. So its us who are not playing by the rules.
Now that is just lame. China and Russia are totally involved in the powerplay to the full extent they can(covertly and overtly)...be it by arming iran(biggest supplier to iran also supplied Iran a Nuclear plant),syria etc.
Russia is a direct beneficiary of keeping the Middle east unstable in more ways than one. It limits American influence in the region and at the same time keeps the price of oil from falling...since it is a big producer of oil itself(unlike China).
China has similar goals, it also needs the oil for its economic needs. Limiting US access to the oil in the region is one way. China is Irans biggest supplier of unconventional arms(sold chemical precursors, production equipment and technology to Iran).
The only difference is that China and Russia cannot currently project their military might too far from their borders. They are more than making up for this by adding to the instability for their own interests.
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right, Did you try that little experiment I suggested with your neighbour?
Just let him know its only "Survival of the fittest" he should understand be ok with it.
We already went through this...your simplistic assumptions and comparisions ar eonly hollow comebacks. See above how this paradigm of survival of the fittest holds true in world politics. Prove me wrong.
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How does it become a disadvantage to us if we dont start a war of greed? I dont see Russia or
China starting wars with oil rich nations to rob them?
See above.
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...again you are making the same excuse of, ....\\\"if I dont rob you some else will....again try that
experiment with your neighbour and let us know here how it worked out.\\\"
We are running in circles...see above
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Secure.....???? why?
So that others do not get what we need for our economy...see above.
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Secondly, now you admit we are siding with factions in the violence, this is contrary to your
earlier statement that we are not inciting sectarian violence. How can we not if we are on one side or the other?
The current Iraqi govt has to be enabled to exert control over its borders. Simple as that.
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So you just admitted to the fact that we are liking this sectarian strife and we will keep it alive by covert means ?
Nope see above. You are miscontruing my words for the sake of your propaganda. The sooner the secterian strife is quelled......the sooner the oil supply is secure...the sooner we can get out of there.
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yes, agree there. We would be dealing with them in a civilized way then.
.....but who knows, either that or like animals we could use your other theory "Survival of the fittest" and go to war.
Can you prove that world politics about 'survival of the fittest' is just my theory? Can you prove that it is not the way politics is actually conducted all over the world?
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Yes, As long as we keep this killing going on...that oil deal should push thru safe and sound, right?
no. We cannot secure the oil as long as the killing is going on. The deal does not mean much if there is no security to back the deal. All it takes is a few explosives and a camel to bring down a refinery. There has to be security in Iraq so the US can ensure a continued supply of oil for itself. To argue otherwise is illogical.
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Huh? Are you looking for a contructive debate or just come backs?
Constructive debate? Please, read your comments (on me) to see how constructive you have been?
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I did not say that ousting Saddam was the only reason for being there. What I did say that the
majority(according to the ethnic breakup) are happy Saddam is ousted. Can you refute that or are
you going to stick to the hollow comebacks?
I dint refute that at any point.
I think, they were uneasily happy when he was ousted they did have the right premonition that a bigger evil was about dominate them.
Here is what I am saying,
Even if that the majority are happy to be out of Saddams grip.
They (the various factions as you like to call them) are not going to give us a free pass into
pilliaging their resources?
None of the factions will allow it, whether we side them or not.....isnt it clearly evident by the
recent attempt on the green zone while our VP was there.
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Now that is just lame. China and Russia are totally involved in the powerplay to the full extent
they can(covertly and overtly)...be it by arming iran(biggest supplier to iran also supplied Iran
a Nuclear plant),syria etc.
Arming Iran is not the same as attacking Iran into submission for its resources.
One act causes them happiness the other hate towards the perpetuator.
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It limits American influence in the region and at the same time keeps the price of oil from
falling...since it is a big producer of oil itself(unlike China).
At one point you say Russia cannot flex its muscle beyond its borders and now you say it can control oil price.
Do you know what that means? Controllng oil in todays world? very contrdicting statements.
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The only difference is that China and Russia cannot currently project their military might too far
from their borders. They are more than making up for this by adding to the instability for their
own interests.
The instability we have caused is being sensibly neutralized by these nations to a small extent.
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We already went through this...your simplistic assumptions and comparisions ar eonly hollow
comebacks.
So you dont have an answer to this, do you?
Let me explain it for you.
Apart from it doing good, politics is also used to cover crimes in humbug to make it look
complicated to the commoner. Its when you apply simplistic thought to it, that the truth comes out
clearly. Simplicity, usually makes political crimminals uncomfortable.
World politics is not some vague cloudy entity that no one can grasp or control. It dosnt have a
life of its own...the way you make it seem.
World politics is financed by us the common man via our taxes, govts are our representation, and politics
affects one and all in their daily lives.
Its basic principles cannot be far off from simplicity unless one is delusional and
indifferent towards educating oneself.
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See above how this paradigm of survival of the fittest holds true in world politics. Prove me
wrong.
survival of the fittest ...is a predatory tactic... an uncivilized, ruthless jungle law (currently
practiced by us and wild animals) its not world politics.
You can see how popular GW is in the US after trying to applying your \"survival of the fittest\"
theory in american politics.
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So that others do not get what we need for our economy...see above.
So you say, its ok to steal from someone just incase others get it instead of us.
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Nope see above. You are miscontruing my words for the sake of your propaganda. The sooner the
secterian strife is quelled......the sooner the oil supply is secure...the sooner we can get out
of there.
Explain, why should we be taking sides then?
One day with the Sunnis the next with Shia, depending on which day of the week it is?
Taking sides is not an effective way to quell violence, its to cause more harm to one side or the
other side?
If you are attempting to quell violence you should attempt to start global negotiation and talk
and listen to grievences of people around that region. You cant force any peace at gun point.
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Can you prove that world politics about 'survival of the fittest' is just my theory? Can you prove
that it is not the way politics is actually conducted all over the world?
Define that for me?
I do not know what your context is here, Fittest in what way? military? manpower? wealth? health?
resources? market share? consumerism? intelligence index? educated mass? infrastructure?
geography?
The term \"survival of the fittest\" can also be used when two high school kids quiz for a prize...
or when two chef's cook it out on food network........ so to use such a broad meaning term in world
politics is fair depending on the context ......but to use it to justify the carnage, pillaging and
killing we have laid upon the ME people and call it thus is chillingly cold and socially deviant
at the least.
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no. We cannot secure the oil as long as the killing is going on. The deal does not mean much if
there is no security to back the deal. All it takes is a few explosives and a camel to bring down
a refinery. There has to be security in Iraq so the US can ensure a continued supply of oil for
itself. To argue otherwise is illogical.
How does this \"killing\" you mention above equate to destroying the oil supply that the west covet.
We just have to let them know its only us, your saviours, whom you dont hate thats taking the oil.
I thought you said they dont hate us. We should be able to pick up that barrel of oil at no cost
then, isnt it? Hmmmmm does somebody hate us then, I am beginning to think so?
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