Hindustan - A foreigner's view


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mercury6   
Member since: Jan 04
Posts: 2025
Location: State of Denial

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 10-02-05 01:55:41

Quote:
Orginally posted by DiogenestheCynic

I think quite a few people have some very mistaken notions about British Rule. They tend to equate it slavery almost. India under the British rule was not bad. Show me one person who can say that the administration and living conditions under British rule were "bad". People forget that even under British rule, Indians were allowed to hold good government jobs. The only restriction, IMHO was they kept the administration and control in their hands, which again IMHO we should realize was a good thing when we compare the efficiency and corruption of that time with what happened over the last 50 years after they left.


Christian religion recommends requires that all persons become Christians. From the point of view of Christianity, people can be saved only if they accept Jesus as their saviour. Therefore, from the Christian missionary's point of view, what he is attempting is actually for your own good. He is trying to save you! What is wrong if he does that as long as as he does not use brute force or other illegitimate means. Rather than ask the missionary not to try to convert, why don't you question the Hindu who accedes to the conversion. Why can't you give that Hindu whatever he seems to get from conversion?




I think we can safely argue that we have tried to do the best we can in the last 50 years. Some of the problems have been created by us , some by the British. No one likes to be under foreign rule just because there is better administration. The primary aim of foreign rule is not betterment of the local population but to exploit the resources to its advantage.

I know one can say the choice is between Forein rule/Good administration and Independence/disorderliness. Take your pick.

Regarding Missionary work, I have only one question and this is to all here and not just you.

Why cannot a misionary help a person out without converting or enticing him with promises based on religion? I am sure many do, but since we are talking of the ones who do it with ulterior motives...

Just to make it clear when I say missionary I mean a missionary from any religion.


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paradesicanadian   
Member since: Mar 04
Posts: 66
Location: Mississauga

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 10-02-05 12:27:26

Hi
According to me it is the right time to think about, is there any truth in the foreigeners statement about India.



V PANDIT   
Member since: Dec 04
Posts: 31
Location: Montreal

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 11-02-05 11:29:59

Hi All

Below I will try and link some strands of history with Indian soul....

The advent of industrial revolution this was done
by having precious metals shipped to the mother country. After industrialization (especially after the Napoleonic Wars), cheap raw materials were exported to Britain.
These raw materials (cotton, jute) were then manufactured, and sold back to the colony as a finished good thus maximizing profit for the mother country. This policy had the advantage of creating full employment at home, and mercantilism also fueled industrial
growth for England. Trading patterns developed to enhance the effects of mercantilism. Triangular trade replaced bilateral trade in the 17th century. The most well known route involved shipping slaves from Africa to the Caribbean, molasses from the Caribbean to America, and then rum back to Africa. A less well-known route involved shipping opium from Bengal (India) to China, tea from China to England, and then textiles from Britain were sold to India. Profits were reaped at each leg of the trade route, which was controlled by the British East India Company until 1833-34. China prohibited opium smoking in 1729, and banned all trade of opium in 1773, but trade in this product increased exponentially after 1823. In 1729, 200 chests of opium were imported to "licensed traders", this became 5,000 chests by 1820. From 1820 to 1832 importation grew to 23,500 chests of opium. By 1838 this number had grown to 40,000 chests of opium, which became 60,000 in 1858. British plantations in Bengal (India) were the chief suppliers of opium to the world. This was done most often at the expense of valuable food crops that could be consumed on the subcontinent. Opium was first distributed to the Chinese through the port city of Canton. Bills of exchange were written to buy tea and silks for shipment to Britain. The British were in a "win" situation on all three legs of the Asian triangular trade, especially as opium created a self made market with users willing to pay any price for the addictive drug. Two "Opium Wars" were fought by England in the 19th century to expand the trade, and the suppression "Boxer Rebellion" in the 20th century was to protect trading rights and "spheres of influence." This destructive trade finally came to an end during World War I, by which time opium production in China supplied Chinese addiction.

England ended British East India Company rule in Bengal in 1858 after the 1857 Uprising. This revolt of Hindu and Muslim troops against their British officers resulted in the death of thousands of British civilians and military personnel, and many more Indians.

After the very destructive Uprising, Parliament and Queen Victoria became the direct rulers of India with a larger and more expensive regular army, supplemented by loyal recruits from Gurkhas and Sikhs. This more expensive military presence was paid for by a 35% tax on salt. This hated Salt Tax would be used by Mahatama Gandhi in 1930 to rally the Indian people against British rule. Salt, a necessity in India's hot climate, was one of many goods taxed by such internal taxes which went directly to England to support British rule. While Indian citizens were struggling to pay the Salt Tax, many cottage industries were going bankrupt as England flooded India with cheap manufactured goods. Unregulated competition from England destroyed the local cotton and jute manufacturing businesses in India. The development of steamships shortened transportation time to the subcontinent, and huge British investment in Indian railroads enabled raw materials and manufactured goods to reach all parts of India. The result for many Indians was unemployment and poverty. Many sought work as plantation workers or moved to East and South Africa seeking jobs. For example, harvests of jute, a fibrous material used in making rope, burlap, and many other products, supported a large textile industry in Manchester, Lancashire, England and Dundee, Scotland. Britain was able to import raw jute from India, manufacture burlap sacks, and sell the sacks back to India and still make a handsome profit. Although United States was the single largest purchaser of burlap sacks. At the same time this colonial economy was installed, India's population was growing from 200 million in 1860 to 300 million in 1920. Frequent droughts and famines convinced the British that the subcontinent was hopelessly mired in poverty made worse by unchecked population growth, and a climate that made steady agricultural growth impossible. This British bias became a self fulfilling prophecy as Social Darwinists pointed to Indian habits that lacked thrift and ambition. All of these British attitudes and policies contributed to the great negatives of colonialism, de-industrialization, impoverishment, and loss of national pride.
The jute industry may be seen as an exception to the de-industrialization trend, as jute manufacturing plants appeared in India before the end of the 19th century, upon closer scrutiny this was not true. Jute plants in Calcutta usually hired their managers from Dundee, Scotland. They often used machinery that had been cast off from the more modern plants in England and Scotland. Native Indian workers were only hired for the
lowest most unskilled jobs. In fact wages were so low that modernization of the jute plants in India was severely hampered. For example, instead of cranes and derricks to load raw jute or the manufactured product (gunnysacks) from dock to ship, less costly human labor was used. Workers carried jute or jute products on and off ships on their head, frequently working 12 hour days for very low pay. The European plant manager normally lived in relative splendour with twenty or more servants and a large house. The Indian worker frequently needed to have his wife and children also working at the plant in order to make ends meet.
Indian nationalists began to address the issue of independence from Britain as the only solution to India's second class economic status in the 1880s.

May I add here that the money earned was spent in developing new outposts in countries like Canada. Today Canada boasts of Dalhousie University in Halifax but remember that this University has been built by none other than the Viceroy to British India, Lord Dalhousie. The money looted by the British in colonial conquests has been enough to afford all its future generations a life of absolute comfort…..please search for the speech made by Dadabhai Naoroji in British Parliament which records the amount of money earned in taxes by the British. All this is in the domain of public knowledge and needs no reiterating. Yet, I do this here just so that some points can be made.

I have nothing against any religion. I will bow to Jesus as I bow to Shiva ( if I ever will for I am an atheist) but at the same time, why are conversions taking place in India remains the moot point? Yes, there is poverty and there are social evils of caste system in place and the poor have the right to rebel.

Yet, all the right thinking people should remember that these are the games played for the future of each society according to its rules….with Christian beachheads, the corporations expect a sympathetic consumption patterns amongst the indigenous groups. Right from consumptions of Big Macs to other products, these are just the first steps to neo imperialistic tools.

The original inhabitants of India have been driven out of their greater land mass for the past eight centuries now. The Shah of Afghanistan was a Hindu till about 8th century AD.
And there were large pockets of Hindu groups in Sind till 1947 ( almost 40 % of the population if I am not wrong).

Hindus, the ones who have been the original owners of the land of Kashmir, the land of Shaivism, and who identified with the four Dhams of Hindu religious sites in India, have now been ethnically cleansed from that area. The result is for all to see….even the Chief of Indian Armed Forces sheds tears for militants killed in Kashmir but sheds no tears for the Migrant Hindus, whose rights have been obliterated. The Supreme Court goes into a tizzy whenever there are riots in any part of India but remains a mute spectator otherwise.

Where will this all lead to… I am not sure but I know for certain ( I wish to quote Mahatama Gandhi here) --that the soul of India is intimately tied to Hinduism and if it dies so does India.

So the conversions, I believe are fatal blows to the soul of India and all those who believe in India will oppose conversions. That is my belief. However, the classes that have been oppressed need to be thought about and how…….by developing economically. By not succumbing to imperialistic designs…that should be the way I think.

Thank you.

VP


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mercury6   
Member since: Jan 04
Posts: 2025
Location: State of Denial

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 11-02-05 11:52:15

Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT

The original inhabitants of India have been driven out of their greater land mass for the past eight centuries now. The Shah of Afghanistan was a Hindu till about 8th century AD.
And there were large pockets of Hindu groups in Sind till 1947 ( almost 40 % of the population if I am not wrong).




I just want to respond to this particular point.

Why go back to just 8th century?

The original inhabitants of India are people who now reside in south of india (Dravidians).
They were pushed south as more and more setllers/invaders/ etc... came in from the Northwest.

Correct me if i am wrong and also tell us what north Indians can do about it.
Practically nothing.

See thats why going back in history can be a tricky thing.








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jake3d   
Member since: Sep 03
Posts: 2962
Location: Montreal

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 11-02-05 12:24:42

Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT

So the conversions, I believe are fatal blows to the soul of India and all those who believe in India will oppose conversions.





Oppose how? By passing laws? I think that is detrimental to both India and Hinduism . A politicians tool...to use the masses. An easy way out. Protectionism, in the long run, results in complacency...be it trade or religion. IMO proselytization should not be outlawed...be it India, Canada or USA. Let the proponents of all faiths do it. Let ideologies be replaced by superior ideologies, for those who are looking for them. Let it be the onus of the proponents of each faiths to prove the superiority of their ideologies. Like i said before, I dont think conversions have an impact on hinduism but even if it does...will it mean that Hinduism will have to change some of the unjust practises imposed on it by misinterpretation? Probably. That will only make Hinduism stonger, not weaker.

Forced conversions are another matter.

If according to the upnishads...the ultimate goal is to find the 'one', why should anyone decide how someone else(of free will) should find him/it/her?

Anyways, what exactly are the statistics of conversion rates....does anybody have them? Is there any reason for the emotional response of people or is this just propoganda. The statistics will probably help us see if this is the issue its made out to be by some.


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prakask55   
Member since: Feb 05
Posts: 1
Location:

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 11-02-05 13:07:34

**** Deleted because of troll ID and propagation of utter nonsense! *****

I GUESS I CAN'T MAKE IT CLEAR ENOUGH THAT WE DON'T WANT RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS RUINING THE GOOD STUFF WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE ON CANADIANDESI!!!! IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGION, CASTE, COMMUNITY AND NATIONALITY.

IF YOU HAVE A RELIGIOUS AGENDA OR A CAUSE, START YOUR OWN FREAKING WEBSITE!! DON'T RUIN OURS.

There's this one individual who's hell-bent upon religious propaganda (most already know who this is). When you ban him, he comes back as a troll. I would sincerely request members not to respond to any extremist messages by him, otherwise you're only encouraging him. The messages will be deleted anyways.

The purpose of this website is not to divide, it is to unite!

-BL



crenshaw   
Member since: Sep 04
Posts: 914
Location: Toronto

Post ID: #PID Posted on: 11-02-05 13:57:06

Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d

snip

Anyways, what exactly are the statistics of conversion rates....does anybody have them? Is there any reason for the emotional response of people or is this just propoganda. The statistics will probably help us see if this is the issue its made out to be by some.



If you do look at the census information over the past few decades, you will see that there has actually been a marginal decline in the percentage of Christians as compared to the national population (2.3% in 2001 as compared to 2.4% in 1991). In terms of growth rate too, it has been in line with the national average.

Refer to the attached link for the the numbers

http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/statement.pdf

These numbers would suggest that conversion numbers have been insignificant. Of course, the entire issue is a good political tool for right wingers to mobilize themselves and evidently brings out strong reactions as is evident from this post:

Quote:
Orginally posted by prakask55
Mera bas chale to in leaders & (chamche of western culture) ko chorahe par juton ki mala pahananu.

recent example. what happened in Delhi/shooting of professor of delhi university/people loosing temper.
enough now/do'nt examin our patience/it is enough now/let us live peacefully/do'nt divide us for votes/



Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
Yet, all the right thinking people should remember that these are the games played for the future of each society according to its rules….with Christian beachheads, the corporations expect a sympathetic consumption patterns amongst the indigenous groups. Right from consumptions of Big Macs to other products, these are just the first steps to neo imperialistic tools.



This ‘conspiracy theory’ is a new one – indeed I find it hilarious! So the tribals being converted in a remote village in Bihar or Orissa are now prime market for a Big Mac?

Gee, we should have known, McDonald’s was behind them conversions all along! ;)







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