Posted on: 03-03-05 17:31:53
GWB had no business invading Iraq! He is a liar who lied to his country about Iraq and the wmds. The invasion had absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror. Neither was Iraq in any way a threat to the US. This stupid war mongering chimp has been the cause of death and destruction brought upon a country and its people. Making regime changes on a soverign nation on ones whims and fancy is a dangerous precedent.
If Iraq had a brutal dictator, it was for the people of Iraq to rise up against him, rebel and overthrow him. The most the US or anyone else is legitimately permitted is to lend support to the faction with which it feels ideologically aligned.
Invading a country because you want a regime change is criminal! Many more people have died in Iraq as a result of the war than have been killed by Saddam during his 30 year regime.
Iraq will likely always be plagued with internal strife. The democracy that has been hoisted over it is a sham. Shias and Sunnis have not been known to live peacefully with each other. They never have and they never will.
Saddam - dictator - enemy. Mush - dictator - chum. Huh?
And to top it all OBL is still free, and hiding in Mush's Pakistan!
He and his gang of neo cons are a disgrace to humanity. The sooner the world is rid of from the likes of him, the better it will be.
Man o' man! Do I hate him with a passion!
I'll come back with some cuss words later.
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Diogenes
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The Cynic
Quote:
Orginally posted by pratickm
However, despite everything, GWB is not = America.
There is a significant part of the population that do not like, do not agree with GWB.
A lot of them voted Kerry, but most \\\"middle Americans\\\" voted Bush simply because there was no convincing alternative.
Kerry stands for nothing -
I agree on all these points. I never said anything otherwise either. My opening post itself mentioned the divisions in America.
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All throughout Bush's tenure the more moderate Republicans have been uncomfortable with GWB's stance on these issues.
But because GWB has won a second term, they are keeping their mouths shut.
Well they voted for him as presidential candidate..so alls good there.
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I don't agree that this kind of war-mongering serves USA's long-term interests - it may serve GWB's dynasty well, but not America.
This is where we part ways. I think his tenure has proven that America will take care of its interests. Not just lob a cpl of missiles from the air and hope for the best.
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After Bush is gone, he would have left America with a huge fiscal deficit, a weak dollar, a bankrupt social security system, and a world that is rife with conflict, extremists and terrorists.
As compared to before Bush? The cpl of missiles Clinton sent did nothing to the taleban. But look at them now
. Why remember, the air-india hijacking?. Those hijackers took a guided horeback ride back to pakistan. Would it happen today? . What about the other countries we discussed? Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi, Syria...all of them used to pay lipservice while funding the terrorists...they suddenly have seen the light. How is any of this not good for American Interests?Quote:
When Bush leaves offices 4 years from now, he would have left the world a worse place than before (unlike Clinton).
That is not true...9/11 was hatched during Clintons watch. People were chanting 'death to america' long before Bush...even as far back as Carter...remember?. I agree with you that it was US policies that bought everything to this.
The question is, why would the world be any worse off now?I think the geo-political situation has changed so much with the US action in Iraq and Afghanistan that no one wants to be seen supporting the terrorists anymore. Or they know they could be next.
How then is the world any more dangerous than before?
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Quote:
Orginally posted by DiogenestheCynic
GWB had no business invading Iraq! He is a liar who lied to his country about Iraq and the wmds. The invasion had absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror. Neither was Iraq in any way a threat to the US. This stupid war mongering chimp has been the cause of death and destruction brought upon a country and its people. Making regime changes on a soverign nation on ones whims and fancy is a dangerous precedent.
I agree with all this. However my question still is. Has GWB furthered American interests? After all, that is what he was elected to do. Not to worry about what Jake3d and Dtc think about right/wrong and morals .
We could argue about all those till kingdom come and it would still be irrelevant to what world politics is about.
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Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
I agree with all this. However my question still is. Has GWB furthered American interests? After all, that is what he was elected to do.
He was not elected to further the interest of his country using fraudulent means.
I think the war on Iraq has created more terrorists than before. The US is at a greater risk from terrorism than earlier. Americans live in a state of perpetual fear.
American economy has a pretty big deficit.
On the Israeli-Palestine peace, it is too early to say anything. Israel is just a little hopeful that the absence of Arafat might cause a change in the attitude of the Palestinians and is therefore extending a tentative olive branch. But the situation is still unstable and unresolved.
He might have certainly furthered the interests of entities like Haliburton. I don't see how he has improved the interests of the Americans in general.
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Diogenes
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The Cynic
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Orginally posted by jake3d
LIBYA
Oh please - contained from what?
A bankrupt country, with no resources, no money and no future and a leader with one leg in the grave.
Like Cuba.
Contained from doing what?
Invading Washington DC with a large army and colonising North America?
Libya is pretty rich and rick in OIL. Its proven oil reserves as of Jan 2002 is 29.75 Billion Barrels. Compare it to Kuwait which has about 100 Billion Barrels and accounts for 10% of Worlds reserves.
The very fact that Americans lifted the sanction was a sign that they see some opportunity. They wouldnt care much otherwise.
Americans were there till late 70s when the relation with america soured.
However European countries still continued to have good relations. And Were/are in line for oil exploration contracts. Something I am sure america resented. But all is fine now.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ly.html
Other than that Libyans are fairly moderate people. Many of them quite westernized.
Beautiful place along the Mediterranean coast.
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I once made a mistake, but I was wrong about it.
Quote:The American ruling class did not restore relations out of the goodwill in their hearts - they did so because they feared the EU conglomorates will steal the show - same deal as in Iraq.
Orginally posted by mercury6
The very fact that Americans lifted the sanction was a sign that they see some opportunity. They wouldnt care much otherwise.
Americans were there till late 70s when the relation with america soured.
Saddam was doing business with EU companies and the Russians.
The Americans wanted a piece of the pie but could not do so by legitimate means - so they concocted this entire urban legend about war on terrorism and highjacked the concept to invade Iraq.
Can you explain GWB does not invade North Korea who is proclaiming again and again that they aer developing nuclear weapons?
Yet they did not even need one iota of evidence to invade Iraq when everybody (including the UN inspectors) were saying that there is no evidence of weapons?
Simply because Noorth Korea serves no strategic or economic interests.
They don't have barrels of oil, they are not the gateway into the middle east and they don't have a big capitalist market to invade.
This whole thing stinks of double standards, corruption at the highest level and steps back in time to the days of colonial imperialism - it is the same idea, only the weapons and the excuses have changed !
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"Mah deah, there is much more money to be made in the destruction of civilization than in building it up."
-- Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind"
Quote:
Orginally posted by pratickm
The American ruling class did not restore relations out of the goodwill in their hearts - they did so because they feared the EU conglomorates will steal the show - same deal as in Iraq.
Saddam was doing business with EU companies and the Russians.
The Americans wanted a piece of the pie but could not do so by legitimate means - so they concocted this entire urban legend about war on terrorism and highjacked the concept to invade Iraq.
I agree, thats what I meant.
Just like the British, America is essentially a land of Businessmen ( "shopkeepers" ).
From the end of World War one to this day they have been around the arab world. Making mistake after mistake (maybe some with a purpose). And then going back to correct that mistake.
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I once made a mistake, but I was wrong about it.
