Six blasts rock Mumbai railway stations
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ottawa_Nerd
Umm AMbiguity... You seem to have pointed out so eloquently the reasons why I have such attitudes towards folks in India..but you, so convenietly have forgotten the "reasons" for such attitudes.. Afterall, these attitudes did not develop overnight... It took us nearly 60 years to develop.
Let me answer a question you had asked...
Why do I consider a fundamentalist Muslim organization's view, the view proscribed by Muslims ? That is because the "liberals" amongst Muslims (and I am sure there are Muslims who are liberals also..quite different from Muslims we have in our part of the world... e.g., ppl in Turkey) do not make it a point to make their voices heard.
You have also so eloquently pointed out the socio-economic conditions that force such ppl to go into "Terrorism"... I wont doubt that, and I think that is one reason why equitable distribution of wealth is necessary amongst all classes. However,
when you have a group of ppl who WANT to remain segregated by following their archaic laws and trying to impose their archaic views onto those who want to come forward..(e.g., case in hand...Sania Mirza's skirt..it was deemed "Unislamic", A daughter-in-law raped by her father-in-law cannot remain married to her husband, and many such cases !)....you really cant help them.. From your arguements...
"Doomed if I help them, Doomed if I dont"...
Please tell me, how many "liberal" muslims came out in support after the Bomb Blasts.. There was a 16% (or close to that) segment of Muslims who actually justified the 7/7/2005 London train bombings... I buy your arguement..I should not categorize all Muslims by deeds of a few a*******s.. However, when I see on Live TV banners and placards saying "Beware..7/7 will be repeated, Caliphate in Britain".. i cant help, but frame such an opinion about them....
India has given ample opportunities for ppl who wanted to come forward...
Examples being :-
1.) Azim Premji.. a Muslim..(rather a non-muslim for the Fundamentalists)...He heads a conglomerate...Now I dont see how discrimination against Muslim impeded his growth ?
2.) Sania Mirza (whom I pointed above)...and who nearly had to wear Salwar kameez when she played on court (reminds me of female athletes from Iran), not from Non Muslims, but from Muslims.. I hope, we have many more athletes who can emulate her...
3.) Munaf Patel
and many others...
The point being, if a group of ppl think that their saviour is Osama Bin Laden and Secularism, liberal values, tolerance for other religions are bad for their living, then they have NO RIGHT To remain in the country...leave alone criticize them. You may have mistaken this while you criticized me....
FYI... In order to prevent ppl from Watching Football, some "respected" ppl need to pass Fatwa's ! Now what say you ?
Without understanding the context of my previous message, you formed a conclusion about me. However, it seems I was not off mark when I made a guess about your "pseudo-liberal" attitudes...
BTW..who gave you the idea that I support MODI ? read what I said...and then reframe your opinion..If not, then I am sorry to say, I cant respond to your views anymore..You may choose to have your views and I respect that..but sorry to say, not many ppl will buy that point of view...
Oh, someone pointed out about a Traitor amongst Muslims in the Ind0-Canadian community. I sincerely hope he stays alive to expose the deeds of the 17 alleged terrorists...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/07/13/terror--plot.html" target="_blank">http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/07/13/terror--plot.html</a>
I am really not clear about what you are trying to say. My entire previous post was based on your view on the entire muslim caste or to be more precise the muslim religion. Don’t stay confused. Somewhere you say you have never seen a liberal muslim ( excluding our honorable president). From your posts I seems to form an idea that you think the muslims are either terrorists or the supporters of terrorism but again on the other hand you yourself are admitting about the existence of liberal muslims ( sania mirza, ajim premji etc.) to make me understand the great condition of muslims in India. Complete oxymoron. You are admitting about Turkey. You must be knowing about democratic Malaysia and the secular Indonesia too.
http://www.theislamproject.org/education/Africa_Mideast_etc.html
Click on the link; take a look at this map to find out about how many countries in Africa and Asia are have muslims as the majority. And then lets think about how many are involved in terrorism. Can’t you smell some oil here? And again someone will say I am justifying terrorism. Well let me be very clear. I outrightly hate all the religious fanatics irrespective of the religion. And I condemn any incident that involves the taking away of the life of even a single innocent. Be it the fundamentalist muslims bombing away the world peace, be it a country bombing another country. They all are same for me. Power play started long back in the Middle East. One side is saying “we are jihadis and saving islam from danger” and the other side is the ‘God’ bombing an entire country to rescue them from wrong hands. I donot consider any of them right.
Otwa Nerd – I do not want to devolope a wrong idea about your posts. so before answering you again let me ask you – what you are actually saying. Over the years you have developed an idea which is “ liberal muslims are exceptions”. Overall, they all are Jihadis or supporters of the Jihadis and fundamentalists and incompetent to adopt any change and devolopment. So anyone and everyone following this religion is entitled to punishment.” Or you are just opposing fundamentalist muslims whom I call religious fanatics. Just be clear to help me to gain a better perspective of your viewpoint.
I have no problem if you call me a “pseudo liberal”. I know what I am.
Couple of links to show the status of the muslims in India. Because my statements are not enough to prove anything I guess.
http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2006/04/victims_of_bias.html
http://www.mushawarat.com/viewnews.asp?isno=23&newsno=196
Nightmare-
Lol. Get your facts right. Your friends from Ahmedabad (must be subscribing to the same idealogy as u) have given you wrong information. I wouldn't waste too much time in trying to inform you about the reality in Gujarat. If you want to discuss politics then let me tell you - this is not the right thread for that. May be some other time some other place.
Anyways why don’t you ask Mr. Modi to visit West Bengal and get some lessons from the insane commis. Maybe he can learn how to maintain communal harmony ?
Quote:
In case of kashmiri Brahmins – they had no problem against the state or the government. What happened during the partition was not terrorism it was a riot. And that happened even during the time when the kashmiri Brahmins were chased out of the valley.
It was not riots that chased Kashmiri pandits out of Kashmir. It was the terrorists from pakistan who were actively supported by the majority communtiy in Kashmir.
Quote:
But their resistance could never stand a chance against the armed opponents fighting with the help of the neighbouring country. They must be having immense hatred against the muslims of the valley but they have not flown air-planes into buildings, blown up commuter trains and beheaded people because their fight is not against the govt.
Why makes you think they are not angry and their fight is not with the government? It was the pandits who swore loyalty to India, considered themselves to be a part of the mainstream Indian society and it was these people that the government failed to protect when majority community and terrorists started their genocide against them. I see a lot of reasons for the pandits to be mad with the Indian government and to start terrorism of their own. If I was a pandit I for sure would be mad at my government for failing to protect me. And then that same government goes and talks to the state supporting the terrorists and makes statements that kashmir solution has to satisfy 3 parties: India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. What about pandits? I would be mad if my government and country forgot about me after I supported them and swore loyalty. And then of course, that same government that sat and saw pandits being butchered goes and provides security to huriyat leaders who day in and day out make anti-India statements! I see a lot of reasons for pandits to become terrorists.
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and they are with the state and happy with their stands against the injustice that had been done to them.
Part of the answer is above. And again who told you they are happy with the stands against their injustice? First of all there is no stand that the government has taken against their injustice. For decades, pandits are living as refugees in Jammu and on the outskirts of Delhi and yet not a single minister has gone to visit them and you say they are happy with the stand taken against their injustice? It's a well known fact that pandits are a forgotten community, forgotten by their own government that first faiiled to protect them and then later failed to rehabilitate them. When there are riots in Gujarat, there are human rights violations. For some reason, there was never any human rights violations in kashmir towards the pandits. The very fact that you say the pandits are happy with the stand against the injustice done to them shows how biased you are in ur viewpoints.
Quote:
If you want to talk about riots then lets just not talk about the incident of the kashmiri Brahmins. Lets talk about a more recent issue. What about Gujarat?
Once again, what happened to the pandits was not riots. It was plain and simple GENOCIDE. I am happy to talk about Gujarat but will you talk about the Sabarmati express incident that sparked off the riots? No you wouldn't.
You are taking the whole thread off topic. As long as muslims don't want to and choose not to integrate with the mainstream in the country that they CHOOSE to live, the terrorism problems will continue.
Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 16-07-06 13:18:41
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 16-07-06 13:18:41
I get this strange feeling that Ambiguity is a different incarnation of our Resident Mentor..(you-know-who)... So folks... as someone pointed out before...
NO NEED TO RESPOND TO HIS posts... let him go on with his digression, and you guys can apply course correction by not responding to them 
I am making a start there !
Amit..ever heard of this dialogue ?
"Apun kutte ka woh dum hai, 12 baras Nali mein daal do, nali taedhi ho jayegi pan apun vaise ka vaise hi reh jaayega"....
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Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
If confronting you with reality makes my words sound like a “pseudo-liberal” then I am proud to be one, and I am proud to be a communist (many call me that, and you can too).
I belong to a Bengali-Hindu-Brahmin-Indian family
Why did no communist party or its leaders publicly condemn the terror blasts in Bombay
Surprised to learn that Comunists also have religion and caste like others ?
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Non illigitamus carborundum
Quote:
Originally posted by goldeneye
Surprised to learn that Comunists also have religion and caste like others ?
Now theres a 'Just' system. Communism made genocide a state funded art form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
The authoritative "Black Book of Communism — Crimes, Terror and Repression" provides the following estimates:
USSR — 20 million deaths
China — 65 million deaths
Vietnam — 1 million
North Korea — 2 million deaths
Cambodia — 2 million deaths
Eastern Europe — 1 million deaths
Latin America — 150,000 deaths
Africa — 1.7 million deaths
Afghanistan — 1.5 million deaths
Its a good thing theres place for even them in a democracy. My guess is that after islamic terrorism, the next threat the world is facing is from Red(even in a capitalist cloak) China. My only hope(especially for India) is that we dont have to face both threats simultaneously.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
You must be knowing about democratic Malaysia and the secular Indonesia too.
Bali bombings? The PAS in Malaysia ring a bell? Google them.
On November 12, 2003, PAS announced its goal of an Islamic state, which would incorporate sharia law, including stoning and amputation as punishment for criminals.
http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2005/0103/palm/palmer_seaterr.html
Yes the moderates there seem to be figthing back
http://ww3.mid-day.com/news/world/2006/july/140638.htm
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
http://www.theislamproject.org/education/Africa_Mideast_etc.html
Click on the link; take a look at this map to find out about how many countries in Africa and Asia are have muslims as the majority. And then lets think about how many are involved in terrorism. Can’t you smell some oil here?
LOL, judging by your argument, I think theres oil in africa too, OR maybe its all the jewish/Zionists there.
Egypt, Algeria, Somalia, Kenya, Sudan, Ethiopia...even south africa. Dont kid yourself!
http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr113.html
http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369781
Its the same everywhere and it has to stop. Theres always this 'victim' card being played. Are the Christians bombing places in mumbai and toronto to avenge their 'brothers' in Kosovo, who are now being chased out by fanatics who were amongst those who pleaded with the international community and then rejoiced whiole the predominantly christian US bombed the predominantly christian serbs?
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/publications/newsletters/2004/Nov-Feb/newsletter_2004-Feb-8.htm
Turkey has survived so far ONLY due to the secular army which is ready to be equally ruthless in preserving its interests. This has also resulted in generations of secular-minded Turks. Nevertheless, islamic fundamentalism is on rise there too.
Note: I am not equating islam with terorrism. However I think the community attitude has a big role to play in why terrorism/fundamentalism is so widespread in it. Its that attitude of but/if/because (which is finding resonance in liberal circles like in your post) which is adding to the problem.
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