Posted on: 27-05-10 12:57:31
Quote:It is always about a country's own interest (rather the interest of its leaders).
Originally posted by meghal
If it was doing its job, the atlases around world wouldn't be showing J&K as a disputed portion as not an integral part of India. So you think that Indian politicial lobbyist are doing their job perfectly and western politicians are idiots, not to take the lobbyists seriously. And if you are correct, then why would any country give priority to India's interest over their own?
Western countries' leaders are still living in the hangover days from the 1970s when foreign policy favored Pakistan over India because of cold war issues.
even though since those days, india has increased in significance and our western neighbor has simply degenerated further and further into anarchy and chaos.
western powers like US and UK are sill living in the hangover of those days.
that will take time to change.
as the old cold war era leaders retire or die away and new, younger ones take their place hopefully they won't share that hangover and their feet will be grounded in the present realities and not the past.
that is why leaders like obama are probably a good thing for india in the long run, even though he is no less a war mongerer than Bush.
Mind you, I'm not saying that you are wrong about the indian leaders and lobbyists not doing their job.
your point is valid.
our foeign ministers and usually old and from the Nehruvian days.
but they are faced with very stiff challenges and roadblocks when it comes to lobbying foreign govt.
fiscal interests like arms sales, defense contracts, favorable conditions to multi-national corporations always take precedence over other things.
which is why indian lobbyists have such a hard time on the world scene.
Quote:because Amnesty international is simply a tail wagging dog of the US and UK created to be used as a bargaining chip against third-world countries.
as per rediff, Amnesty international is culprit behind this. So why Amnesty international not doing anything in Iraq or China?
human rights is not the issue here.
they provide the leverage that western governments need against third-world countries for giving aid and soft loans.
the western governments do not want human rights in exchange, no sir.
they want arms deals, lucrative defense contracts, opening up its markets and so on.
they are not jumping up and down against North Korea because of its human rights record.
it is doing so because north korea refuses to open up its markets and defense contracts for western powers.
it is unfortunate that this visa problem is happening and certainly indian govt. should protest most strongly.
but i don't see this as their "fault".
it is not anyone's fault.
just smacking hypocracy and obtuseness on the part of a country that is otherwise insignifcant in the world, economically, politically, strategically and militarily.
Quote:
Originally posted by DesiBabu70
just smacking hypocracy and obtuseness on the part of a country that is otherwise insignifcant in the world, economically, politically, strategically and militarily.
Same country that you and I call it a home
, however insignificant it is (with worlds largest water and mineral resources - resources that are non-renewable)Quote:
our foeign ministers and usually old and from the Nehruvian days.
but they are faced with very stiff challenges and roadblocks when it comes to lobbying foreign govt. Fiscal interests like arms sales, defense contracts, favorable conditions to multi-national corporations always take precedence over other things.
It is unfortunate that such interests take precedence against internal security issues like J & K or Punjab. As per IBN, the Canadian official asked that guy about operation Bluestar. Why should operation Bluestar should be of any significance to CHC guy? And after 25+ years, nobody in Indian government has the guts to back up that bold decision? Everybody skirts around that issue on fear of offending the minorities.
Canadian officials are being over cautious/vigilant, but at same time, being overcautious MAY be better than issuing visa to a person like David Headley.
Quote:
Originally posted by meghal
The onus here is on Indian government to prove that BSF/Army/IB is not involved in terror activities. And from these events, it seems Indian government is not doing its job of explaining the J & K/Punjab scenario to the world.
Second, Brit/US army has not been accused of human rights violation in Iraq/Afghanistan, except for those photographed instances. If they are accused, Amnesty International does not seem to have the guts to speak out against them.
Not all our people are involved in violence and torture. That is why you and me are here.
It is understandable to be drawn into emotions while discussing about your country of origin. But take a while to think about this matter objectively and atleast trying to find out the failure of of Indian government, past and present, to point the finger at the real culprit.
Why you think onus is on Indian government?
Just google it and you will found how much Can/US/British army has been accused of human rights violation? What Amnesty International has to do with Visa issue?
I think Indian government has done ok with this issue (considering how they do with many other important matters) and taken up the matter with Canada when media has taken up this issue.
Quote:sure, but that has nothing to do with justifying what they are doing.
Originally posted by meghal
Same country that you and I call it a home
I'm sure many people living in the most impoverished countries like Eritria, Niger, North Korea would be equally proud of their country.
doesn't always mean they agree with what their present govt. does.
Quote:Aha !! glad you mentioned it.
It is unfortunate that such interests take precedence against internal security issues like J & K or Punjab. As per IBN, the Canadian official asked that guy about operation Bluestar. Why should operation Bluestar should be of any significance to CHC guy?
Canadian officials are being over cautious/vigilant
where was CHC and all this policy when they allowed hundreds of sikh extremists to immigrate into Canada.
I guess you are only a danger when you are coming as a visitor.
if you are immigrant, that's fine.
and the fact that allegedly some of those very same extremists caused the Air India crash killing over 300 innocent men women and children.
where was/is CHC when thousands of ex LTTE extremists enter Canada as refugees and then get citizenship?
again it must be ok because they are immigrating.
Not very different from how hundreds of ex Nazis got refuge and good, high-paying jobs in the US after the war.
the entire US space program was designed and built by ex Nazi scientists based on their experience during the Third Reich.
the whole genetic modification of crops programs have their roots in those days as well
well, to be fair, there is a diff.
The Nazis in the US had skills - engineering, science, nuclear technology etc.
the sikh and LTTE extrmists don't. they just come here and live off the social system with free health care and handouts from the govt.
but i guess that's ok.
speaking of kashmir, it is entirely possible that an indian army officer "fought" in kashmir againt pakistani insurgents (like the kargil war).
they probably killed some pakistani soldiers or extremists too.
so yes they engaged in violence.
terrible violence sure.
but by that logic any soldier in any part of the world who's ever fought in a war should be denied Canadian visa.
speak of holier than thou!
Quote:
Originally posted by Ash20
Why you think onus is on Indian government?
Onus is on Indian government because it is an Indian government official that needs visa to Canada, and Indian government practises are being questioned. Almost similar to a job interview, where it is your job to prove your credentials, not your employer's job
Quote:
I think Indian government has done ok with this issue (considering how they do with many other important matters) and taken up the matter with Canada when media has taken up this issue.
It took two years, and a rap on knuckles from home ministry, for MEA to wake up. So it is upon media to tackle this issue, not on MEA/Government.
And still, how many Indian citizens took time to protest against Canadian ambassy in New Delhi/Chandigadh?
Quote:
Originally posted by DesiBabu70
the sikh and LTTE extrmists don't. they just come here and live off the social system with free health care and handouts from the govt.
LTTE extremists came under the garb of refugees, not as immigrants.
And again, if Sikh terrorist were able to convince Canadian officials, that they were tortured, why didn't GOI did anything that time to show what was the reality?
Quote:
sure, but that has nothing to do with justifying what they are doing.
...........
but by that logic any soldier in any part of the world who's ever fought in a war should be denied Canadian visa. speak of holier than thou!
I am not justifying Canadian officials. Yes, they should apply the same set of criteria to any immigrant irrespective of country of origin.
Quote:
Originally posted by meghal
Quote:
Originally posted by Ash20
Why you think onus is on Indian government?
Onus is on Indian government because it is an Indian government official that needs visa to Canada, and Indian government practises are being questioned. Almost similar to a job interview, where it is your job to prove your credentials, not your employer's job
Quote:
I think Indian government has done ok with this issue (considering how they do with many other important matters) and taken up the matter with Canada when media has taken up this issue.
It took two years, and a rap on knuckles from home ministry, for MEA to wake up. So it is upon media to tackle this issue, not on MEA/Government.
And still, how many Indian citizens took time to protest against Canadian ambassy in New Delhi/Chandigadh?
No, they are ex-government official and applied for visa on personal capacity (not official). It is Canadian government right to give or deny visa but reasons given by CAN embassy are stupid. Hey, this is not a job interview and in the same way Indian or any government can deny visa to anybody including CAN government official.
Hey it is more than 25 years that more than 300 people were killed due in plane bombing and still we have no culprit in Canada (except one). So all governments work in similar way (and yes, I know Canadian government work much better than Indian government) but this is stupid action by Canadian embassy officials.
My guess is we will see some kind of statement/action in very near future from Canadian government/embassy as Indian media may not stop now (all western governments now also need India (of course India also need them) and time is not same as 70-80s.
Can you explain how visa applicant can prove that he is not involved in human rights violation. How you will prove that you are not involved in human rights violation.
This is not an issue for general Indians so why they should protest against Canadian embassy (by the way protesting is very easy in India).
I am not sure what you are trying to justify.
