Posted on: 06-03-05 18:14:54
Quote:No I haven't - but I have heard good things about it.
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
. Sorry for extending the detour, however have you seen the movie OfficeSpace?
I will check it out on DVD soon !
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"Mah deah, there is much more money to be made in the destruction of civilization than in building it up."
-- Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind"
Quote:Apparently, the Iraqi writing on that message board was not a guest at Abu Gharib, was he?
Orginally posted by jake3d
And I follow those bbc discussion boards too...and it was interesting during the iraqi elections when most of the 'Middle american' kind of westerners were deriding those election, most of the Iraqis were actually elated about it. One of them basically asked the westerners to shut up. Yes this was on the 'independent' bbc talkback boards. You can check it out if you have the archives.
Regardless, the US tax payer's $$ are not there to bring joy, freedom and elation to the Iraqis - it is there to bring prosperity, stability, and security to the US citizens.
The war on Iraq does neither - quite the opposite.
It brings prosperity only to the "fatcats" running those MNCs that are profiting from the war.
The rest of Americans are kissing their tax dollars a fond goodbye....
It is neither bringing them stability nor security - again the opposite.
On another note, I think the same discussion is being carried out on more than one thread now - it is getting confusing to keep track of it.
And I am guilty of it myself
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"Mah deah, there is much more money to be made in the destruction of civilization than in building it up."
-- Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind"
Quote:
Orginally posted by pratickm
Apparently, the Iraqi writing on that message board was not a guest at Abu Gharib, was he?
I guess not *most* of the guests there at that place used to blow up other iraqis for sport before they were caught and had to suffer the indignities of having panties placed on their heads. Oh, they also blew up school buses with children in them. But hey, thats ok. Its the panties on the head or the insults to manhood that are worse. Right?
as for the rest...same as before.
1)Americans have voted Bush in
2)Foreign policy=selfinterest=economic interest=not about morals.
3)Most in arab world are now wary of supporting the terrorists. The bloody stick is still being waved and may come down on thier backs. The bloody stick has worked better than no stick. The money tap has been turned off too.
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Quote:This is what I meant when I said that forces have been unleashed that are beyond the control of the ones who unleashed them.
Orginally posted by jake3d
I guess not *most* of the guests there at that place used to blow up other iraqis for sport before they were caught and had to suffer the indignities of having panties placed on their heads. Oh, they also blew up school buses with children in them. But hey, thats ok. Its the panties on the head or the insults to manhood that are worse. Right?
I am not going to take a pick between blowing up innocent men women and children and abuse in the torture camps of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay, because both are equally evil.
It is equally evil to raze villages to the ground and kill innocent men, women and children using poison gas and other chemical weapons simply to preserve and further "self-interests" - you know who and what I am talking about.
Quote:Oh la la - first they create this monster when it suits their convenience, and now shed crocodile tears because the monster is feeding on their own food !
as for the rest...same as before.
1)Americans have voted Bush in
2)Foreign policy=selfinterest=economic interest=not about morals.
3)Most in arab world are now wary of supporting the terrorists. The bloody stick is still being waved and may come down on thier backs. The bloody stick has worked better than no stick. The money tap has been turned off too.
Not once, but many times they did that - to preserve their "self-interests" in Afghanistan, to preserve their "self-interests" in the middle east, in Uganda and most of central Africa, the rebels in South America - the list goes on and on.
And now they shed tears when the monster turns against them - you know what is funny about the whole thing - it was the tax $$$ that funded the creation of the monster, and now it is again funding the "fight" against the monster.
Preserving self-interest indeed !
Where may I ask were these beacons of freedom and liberty when millions were being massacared in Rawanda?
Where may I ask the torchbearers of democracy are when the massacre is going on in Sudan?
When millions of children are dying of starvation and malnourishment in Sub Saharan Africa?
When human rights are being violated with impunity in Indonesia/East Timor?
You may say - "ah but the Americans are not responsible for bringing freedom and democracy to the entire world" - no, indeed they are not.
If not, then what is so special about Iraq that is not special about North Korea or Sudan or Rwanda?
Answer - "self-interest".
Question - "whose? American people's or the ruling elite's?
I will leave you to guess the answer.
On a last note - what's the difference betweeb the gassing of innocent civilians in Vietnam, or the Nazi concentration camps, or by Saddam in Kurdistan, the massacre in Rwanda, the genocide in the Balkans, the war in Iraq and the illegal detention and torture of political prisoners in Guantanamo Bay - I don't see any difference.
Did any of these activities promote the interests of the respective countries (Germany, Iraq, Balkans, etc.) or only of a select few individuals/groups ?
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"Mah deah, there is much more money to be made in the destruction of civilization than in building it up."
-- Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind"
Quote:
Orginally posted by pratickm
This is what I meant when I said that forces have been unleashed that are beyond the control of the ones who unleashed them.
I am not going to take a pick between blowing up innocent men women and children and abuse in the torture camps of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay, because both are equally evil.
It is equally evil to raze villages to the ground and kill innocent men, women and children using poison gas and other chemical weapons simply to preserve and further \"self-interests\" - you know who and what I am talking about.
Hey thats how it is...innocents die, to feed our affinity for consumption. Its not all Bushes fault tho
Quote:
Oh la la - first they create this monster when it suits their convenience, and now shed crocodile tears because the monster is feeding on their own food !
Not once, but many times they did that - to preserve their \"self-interests\" in Afghanistan, to preserve their \"self-interests\" in the middle east, in Uganda and most of central Africa, the rebels in South America - the list goes on and on.
I did not say that it always works. The fact is that they are not doing it out of spite...but self-interests
Quote:
Where may I ask were these beacons of freedom and liberty when millions were being massacared in Rawanda?
Where may I ask the torchbearers of democracy are when the massacre is going on in Sudan?
When millions of children are dying of starvation and malnourishment in Sub Saharan Africa?
When human rights are being violated with impunity in Indonesia/East Timor?
You may say - \"ah but the Americans are not responsible for bringing freedom and democracy to the entire world\" - no, indeed they are not.
On a last note - what's the difference betweeb the gassing of innocent civilians in Vietnam, or the Nazi concentration camps, or by Saddam in Kurdistan, the massacre in Rwanda, the genocide in the Balkans, the war in Iraq and the illegal detention and torture of political prisoners in Guantanamo Bay - I don't see any difference.
Did any of these activities promote the interests of the respective countries (Germany, Iraq, Balkans, etc.) or only of a select few individuals/groups ?
Have you been reading what I have been writing? You have just proven what I have been saying all along.
I am NOT saying the Americans are acting to uphold democracy(except when it suits their interests)!!!!
I am NOT saying its morally right(except when it suits their interests)!!!
That they were not in Sudan, Rawanda, Timor etc only proves this fact.
YOU are the one looking for moral justification. I am not!
Quote:
If not, then what is so special about Iraq that is not special about North Korea or Sudan or Rwanda?
Answer - "self-interest".
Question - "whose? American people's or the ruling elite's?
I will leave you to guess the answer.
I've also shown how corporate world and the American economy are linked...but again you choose not to see it. If it benefits the corporate sector...the economy benefits, and so does their economic self interest. Can you deny this basic concept?
I am saying they are working solely on self interest! Please re-read my first post or we will run around in circles. Somewhere along the line you agreed that self interest is the overiding factor in world politics and then now again you go looking for moral justification.
There are none. And we as a species have to decide if thats how we want to be.
You have decided its all Bush's fault. I say that WE have all enabled Bush(and others like him) to be in the position he is in now.
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I think we can finally arrive at some middle ground here.
Quote:I agree - the imperialist capitalist system is not the fault of GWB - although he is the current guardian of that system.
Orginally posted by jake3d
Hey thats how it is...innocents die, to feed our affinity for consumption. Its not all Bushes fault tho
There are indeed others - people like Tony Blair, Putin, and some of our own leaders - but he must be acknowledged as the leader of the hit parade.
Quote:OK, so we agree on that.
Have you been reading what I have been writing? You have just proven what I have been saying all along.
I am NOT saying the Americans are acting to uphold democracy(except when it suits their interests)!!!!
I am NOT saying its morally right(except when it suits their interests)!!!
My position is that *most* normal, middle Americans do not want, or appreciate, this policy.
There are Americans who don't care either way - all they want is their big gas guzzler SUV and 3 big Macs a day.
But there are other Americans who care, and who do not appreciate this.
They did vote against it, but lost out.
They lost out because a lot of other middle Americans thought it is better to vote for a candidate they know represents a certain position, rather than vote for someone who is not clear himself.
Quote:On the contrary - international politics and imperialist capitalism knows no morals and I don't try to assign any.
That they were not in Sudan, Rawanda, Timor etc only proves this fact.
YOU are the one looking for moral justification. I am not!
All I am saying is that GWB is furthering the interests of a small class of people and not the general population.
He did indeed get the popular vote, but he is not furthering their interests.
*How* he managed to get the popular vote *despite* several people admitting that his policies are not in line with their interests is a matter of electoral analysis.
During the election campaign, several voters said on televion (not just BBC bloggers) that they do not support the war and do not like his economic policies, but they will still vote for him because Kerry doesn't stand for anything.
This was part of election commentary on all major American news channels like CNN, ABC, NBC, etc.
Quote:Oh, I see it alright.
I've also shown how corporate world and the American economy are linked...but again you choose not to see it.
Believe me, I am very familiar with the nexus between the corporate world and the world of politics.
If this is your only claim, then we are in perfect agreement !
Quote:Yes and no.
If it benefits the corporate sector...the economy benefits, and so does their economic self interest. Can you deny this basic concept?
It will benefit a certain class of people - not just the fat cats, but a certain class of people.
Not the general population.
If that were true, then as a result of the Vietnam war, it should have benefitted the entire American population.
But did it?
What about the other wars that the USA has fought, either directly or proxy wars?
Have all of them benefitted the American masses?
I don't think so.
Have they benefitted a certain class of people - YES !
Quote:
I am saying they are working solely on self interest! Please re-read my first post or we will run around in circles.
OK, now I am confused.
Are you saying that the economic and foreign policies of GWB's regime are in self-interest?
If so, then we are in perfect agreement !
If, however, you are saying that he is furthering the intrests of the American masses, then I disagree.
Quote:If that is your real position, then we are in perfect agreement !
You have decided its all Bush's fault. I say that WE have all enabled Bush(and others like him) to be in the position he is in now.
It is indeed we (as in consumers and voters) who have allowed this monster to rise and rule.
Just as we (as in consumers and voters) allowed Hiter to rise and rule.
I agree that the American consumer, by their habits and apathy, have allowed leaders to take the world hostage to their own self-interests.
However, I do not agree that all this can promote the interests of average American and world citizens - it can only lead to more strife, wars and instability.
In other words, history repeating itself.
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"Mah deah, there is much more money to be made in the destruction of civilization than in building it up."
-- Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind"
Quote:
Orginally posted by pratickm
I agree - the imperialist capitalist system is not the fault of GWB - although he is the current guardian of that system.
There are indeed others - people like Tony Blair, Putin, and some of our own leaders - but he must be acknowledged as the leader of the hit parade.
Thats where we differ. I just think of him and others like him, as a symptom of the problem. The real problem is our need for the 2 cars, the bigger house, the jewellery etc. Bush and other leaders are only trying to fulfill these needs of ours.
Quote:
My position is that *most* normal, middle Americans do not want, or appreciate, this policy.
But there are other Americans who care, and who do not appreciate this.
They did vote against it, but lost out.
They lost out because a lot of other middle Americans thought it is better to vote for a candidate they know represents a certain position, rather than vote for someone who is not clear himself.
My debate is not that these people DO NOT exist. My debate is that democracy is the best way to maintain a balance and that the right wing(in all contries) are a legitimate part of that process. By that token I accept Bush for the time being. Just as I would the Congress or the BJP. once the people have spoken.
Quote:
On the contrary - international politics and imperialist capitalism knows no morals and I don't try to assign any.
Finally !
Quote:
All I am saying is that GWB is furthering the interests of a small class of people and not the general population.
He did indeed get the popular vote, but he is not furthering their interests.
Again. I think you are confusing ídeology with economic interest. Those 'middle americans' may not agree with Bushs ideology, however, they were aware of that. They do not see eye to eye on Moral grounds. However, as we have agreed "international politics and imperialist capitalism knows no morals and I don't try to assign any."
Quote:
*How* he managed to get the popular vote *despite* several people admitting that his policies are not in line with their interests is a matter of electoral analysis.
Would you seek that analysis even if the dems came to power? Isnt it being a sore loser. I think Democracy has decided and I trust it.
Quote:
Yes and no.
It will benefit a certain class of people - not just the fat cats, but a certain class of people.
Not the general population.
Not true. Read on.
Quote:
If that were true, then as a result of the Vietnam war, it should have benefitted the entire American population.
But did it?
What about the other wars that the USA has fought, either directly or proxy wars?
Have all of them benefitted the American masses?
I don't think so.
Not all their endaevours have been successful. However, are they stupid to go in without self-interest?. That does not make any sense and I dont think so. Only their calculations backfired. A war is mostly a gamble. Its purely out of self-interest and there can never be a moral justification for war. My point(from my very first post) is that THIS time the gamble seems to be paying off.
Quote:
OK, now I am confused.
Are you saying that the economic and foreign policies of GWB's regime are in self-interest?
You are not reading my posts are you
.? My only argument was about his foreign policy and the economic benefits of the same. I am not a defender of all his economic policies. Again I do not even support his Ideology.Quote:
If so, then we are in perfect agreement !
Almost read on
Quote:
If, however, you are saying that he is furthering the intrests of the American masses, then I disagree.
Allow me to quote someone who says that it is in the ''economic self interest '' of the americans that Bush is acting as he does.
"I agree that the American consumer, by their habits and apathy, have allowed leaders to take the world hostage to their own self-interests."
The only change I would make is that its not just the Americans but all of us. All of us are the ones who want a piece of the ''American Dream'', even if it is in India/China. I'm not comfortable with shifting blame on the Americans when I spend more money on a 7 day vacation than the 10 year earned income of many peoples. And what would desis do without wal-mart
? Lets not throw stones when we live in glass houses. If we believe in the 'trickle down'' theory then we have to accept capitalism and by that token...people like Bush. Lets leave the moral grandstanding for when we are able to give up our version of the ''American Dream".
As we are now...Yes, history will likely repeat itself.
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