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Posted on: 21-09-04 08:14:16
Hi desimisri and dubaidesie,
Welcome!
Thanks for the fresh cool breeze you have brought to the canadiandesi.ca. I can already smell a sweet smell of change.
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Man's Best Friend 
Quote:
Orginally posted by deepcb
I only feel sorry about those Ph.Ds /Doctors/ Engineers who end up driving cabs and doing menial jobs for the sake of so called 'STANDARD OF LIVING".
Be a Big Fish in a small pond rather than being a small fish in a big pond !!!!
Deep
40% of visitors to this site, felt that immigrating was worth it.
Can’t really have too much sympathy for the doctor’s, engineers, etc who are driving cabs or working menial jobs. I come from a regulated profession too. Before immigrating, professionals like me were well aware of the requirements for an equivalent Canadian certification. Some of us did our homework; we corresponded with the regulating agency (in my case, the Institute of Chartered Accountants) here in Canada, and started doing the groundwork towards our Canadian certification before landing here. Post-landing was therefore a breeze.
Others thought that moving across continents was like taking furniture down the street. They took abrupt decisions, quitting their jobs and bringing their families in tow, without having a clear understanding of what was required to succeed here, and are now paying the price for that.
As for your comment about being “being a big fish in a pond rather than being a little fish” – yeah sure, “the one eyed lead the blind”.
it should be fairly obvious to any level-headed person that women here definately enjoy more freedom and have more say in matters than women in india... the biggest thing is, you are not so tied down by expectations of a hyppocritical society...
Above quote from big head-senior desi
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Dear Mr Big head
Women in India have reached the prime minister level, Sonia Gandhi according to a famous American magazine is the third most powerful woman in the world, on the Business India cover ICICI bank is shown to be India’s best bank- there are two men and three women on the cover who are responsible for this- I hope you are getting my drift. There are women lawyers, judges, doctors, accountants, etc. in India who are allowed to practice freely. You cannot imagine the horrors women are subjected to in some of the countries we come from and we are not allowed to hold professions.We do not have suffrage. India is heaven compared to these places. Yes agreed there is the other extreme where women are persecuted and burnt but there is also the opportunity to do things mentioned before. There are both there. In our countries there is only one route to go for women. Nelson Mandela is an extreme exception. Can you imagine there to be a Nelson Mandela in the UAE? She would be cut down where she stood, in spite of Dubai being more of the liberal places in the Middle East.
I am unsure about your reference to a hypocritical society- where? here or India? There are hypocrites all over the world. There are tons of instances here where husbands beat up wives here- it is spread all over the news every once in a while.There are three of us girls sharing a condo here and next door lives a couple where every so often we hear the guy beating up the lady and the lady doesn’t say anything. We have told her many times to go to the authorities but she refuses. But in Canada as in India, there are opportunities for women to go complain and set things right. So too in the States- but did you see Paris Hilton complain about who beat her up?
To tell you the truth, if India was not as dirty as it is- please Indians do not get offended, I love India, but I love Canada more- and if one had the opportunity to work there , make good money and buy a home and have all the amenities one has here, I would rather settle in India than Canada. The part of the amenities- since I studied in Pune – there were plenty of beautiful apartment complexes with pools and gyms etc and lots of foreign and quality Indian goods available- so I take that back. It is basically the chance to make good money that drove us here than India.
Though I love the freedom one has here- the same is available in India- but I am more accepted here than in India because of my UAE roots and my accent which is that of a UAE national . My written English I know is good. If the same money was available in India I would go to India. We being brought up in other countries with certain conservative ideas know how to take the positives from the freedom available here, but I am afraid that our children-I do not have any- who will not be instilled as much with the values we grew up will be more prone to imbibe the negatives of a free society. In India we can have conservative values and still be free.
I hope one day India will be a country with the values it has now (no sati, no dowry nonsense as per the law but not enforced now- but should be) and with the world’s most vibrant economy, so that one can make money as well as have certain basic values and no high divorce rate and broken families, the instance of which is very high in Canada.
Azim Premji of India is a classic example of this- rich, humble and with strong family values. In the long run, Canada will crumble and India will surpass it, but in the meantime, let us make the most of what we have here in Canada.
There is a saying in Dubai among us nationals that Indians made Dubai what it is today. Not Pakistanis, not Philipinos, Not Sri Lankans, but Indians. If Indians can do it in Dubai they can do it anywhere, even in their country, and you will. Then all of us will go there.
To spice this up a little bit- Mr entrepreneur- you say you are fat , fair and fifty. Are you Parsi? Of the Tata family? I definitely wouldn’t mind being your sugar baby.- I am jes’ kiddin’ (to quote you)- I have conservative values where that is considered. I am more into a Bollywood type romance. Fall in love and than have some elders “arrange” our “love” marriage(ha!ha! old joke). However if you know somebody of the Azim Premji family, young, dashing and handsome- do let me know.
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“Hello Dubai Desi”
Above quote from Deepcb
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The spelling is Dubaidesie with an “e” – no excuses about typos, nothing will do (jes’ kiddin’ –I’ve fallen in love with this Mr entrepreneur-, you can spell it anyway you wish).
Actually , I just wanted to stress for you that You Indians have made Dubai what it is today. Keep up the good work. Dubai needs people like you more than Canada does. If you are making lots of moolah there- better to be there than here.For me being a lady, it is better here than there- I am sure you understand. I cannot hold a profession there.
Dubaidesie
Hi Dubaidesie,
Way to go, lady. You're my kinda gal! You're damn straight on everything. Had I been able to see how to make money in India to send my child to an Ivy league school, I wouldn'ta left it. It has everything,even money to get your child to an Ivy league school, but I couldn't see accomplishing that, which doesn't mean people ain't doin' it in India. A driver for Infosys or Wipro, I can't remember which, is doin' it just 'cos he got his bonuses in the company's shares and their value skyrocketed in 1999 and 2000.At one time he was worth 4 crores!
And thanks for all that! Coming from an outsider your well wishes for India will damn sure ensure that it will someday surpass Canada.
No, I am not Parsi- I am Sindhi- but the kind that left India during partition to go to India- not the Sindhi that still lives in Pakistan. And no I am not the rich Sindhi from Lagos and Dubai. So no sugar daddy for you- not that I would take you up on that even were I rich. I did all muh philanderin' before marriage. Pretty borin' huh?
No, I don't know anybody from Azim Premji's family. You really are adding zest to this site.
Arranged love marriage?- I seem to remember that from a Salman Khan- Madhuri Dixit movie "Hum Aapke hain kaun" - The first movie of its kind that started a new genre of flicks- Remember seeing it at Liberty in Mumbai.
Keep yer insightful posts acomin'
BKB= Bambai ka babu(since you asked)
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Get what you want by helping others get what they want
just reply to two points... well.. maybe three...
Quote:
Orginally posted by dubaidesie
it should be fairly obvious to any level-headed person that women here definately enjoy more freedom and have more say in matters than women in india... the biggest thing is, you are not so tied down by expectations of a hyppocritical society...
Above quote from big head-senior desi
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Dear Mr Big head
Women in India have reached the prime minister level, Sonia Gandhi according to a famous American magazine is the third most powerful woman in the world, on the Business India cover ICICI bank is shown to be India’s best bank- there are two men and three women on the cover who are responsible for this- I hope you are getting my drift. There are women lawyers, judges, doctors, accountants, etc. in India who are allowed to practice freely.
<snip snip>
true, there are, but the number of empowered women is a very small percentage of the population... just because 10% of all women in the country are empowered, does not mean the lot is well off... the average middle class woman in indian society is still shackled, restricted from doing a lot of things a man is allowed to do... sure there have been advances in the status of women in indian society, but most of those advances have related to a small subsection of indian society, namely the rich... the majority still live in the same conditions they always did... suffering the same indignities they always did...
Quote:
I am unsure about your reference to a hypocritical society- where? here or India? There are hypocrites all over the world. There are tons of instances here where husbands beat up wives here- it is spread all over the news every once in a while.There are three of us girls sharing a condo here and next door lives a couple where every so often we hear the guy beating up the lady and the lady doesn’t say anything. We have told her many times to go to the authorities but she refuses. But in Canada as in India, there are opportunities for women to go complain and set things right. So too in the States- but did you see Paris Hilton complain about who beat her up?
india ofcourse... granted, it exists other places as well, but not to the same tune... sure, you hear about women being beaten and abused here, but how often do you hear about a woman who is burnt alive by her in laws because she did not bring sufficient cash or jewellry when she got married? and the saddest part is, there is so much abuse against women that goes on there that is simply just ignored and is not reported... ofcourse in india there is oppurtunity for women to go and complain, but if she does, she is shunned by society... and half the time the authorities dont do anything even if the woman complains because they have been paid off by the people she is complaining about...
again, just talking about a small percentage does not make it apply to the wider population... sure women here are abused, but here they have recourse against that abuse that is much more effective than the recourse they would have in india... thats my point...
i very strongly believe that anyone who for any reason whatsoever, abuses a woman, be he indian, canadian, american or who ever, should be dealt with in the harshest way possible... it should be a crime that is akin to rape or murder and should come with some sort of similar punishment... regardless of what century we live in, women today, even though they are better off than they were 50 years ago, are still oppressed, in all parts of the world... but women here when compared to india are better off... only an obstinate fool who refuses to see the truth will keep insisting otherwise...
Quote:
To tell you the truth, if India was not as dirty as it is- please Indians do not get offended, I love India, but I love Canada more- and if one had the opportunity to work there , make good money and buy a home and have all the amenities one has here, I would rather settle in India than Canada. The part of the amenities- since I studied in Pune – there were plenty of beautiful apartment complexes with pools and gyms etc and lots of foreign and quality Indian goods available- so I take that back. It is basically the chance to make good money that drove us here than India.
again, standard of living is not the only thing that makes life wonderful... all the things you talk about are linked with money... and the truth of the matter is, anyone can make money anywhere if they happen to be at the right place at the right time... there are a lot of other things that make life better besides money... the most obvious thing that would come to my mind, is, as you say freedom, but freedom does not mean anything unless its practiced in spirit and not just talked about like a buzzword that does not really mean anything...
in canada, i am protected by the canadian charter of rights in regards to my freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression... i have the right to life, liberty and security of the person i dont have to worry about what religious riot is currently going on outside because someone demolished a mosque or did something bad to some temple... i dont have to be worried about being burnt alive or chopped into little pieces because i have a beard or a tilak on my face... if i am ever arrested for whatever reason, i have the right to fairness in the law, i have the right not to be beaten by the police...
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In the long run, Canada will crumble and India will surpass it, but in the meantime, let us make the most of what we have here in Canada.
i seriously doubt it... but if it does happen, it wont happen in my lifetime or in my children's lifetime... or even in their children's lifetime... and i couldnt care less what happens after that...
my personal take on india... india will never be truly "great" (my definition of great - where all are equal under the law, protected from persecution, and have the oppurtunity to improve their life without hindrance) in the true sense of the word, not because it does not have what it takes to achieve greatness, but because indians by nature are a breed who cannot see their own succeed... they always find some way of screwing up their neighbour... indians distrust each other, because the other person belongs to a different caste, or a different religion, or speaks a different language... people from the south hate people from the north and vice versa... muslims hate hindu's and vice versa... the list just goes on and on... ofcourse, if the people of india can overcome these shortcomings, then india can achieve greatness... till that happens, all india will be is a bunch of indians who insist that india is great while at the same time trying to put out the fires of some village that has just been burned because the residents of that vllage belonged to a specific religious community...
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There is a saying in Dubai among us nationals that Indians made Dubai what it is today. Not Pakistanis, not Philipinos, Not Sri Lankans, but Indians. If Indians can do it in Dubai they can do it anywhere, even in their country, and you will.
then why dont they? you know what i think? indians do better in places where they are not in control... indians do better in places where they are told what to do and treated as second class citizens... where they have no rights or freedoms... where the only thing that they are able to achieve is gobs of money, an affluent lifestyle and not much else... such as the middle east...
people who live in the middle east are happy... why? because they have rights and freedoms? no, because they earn gobs of money, drive around in fancy cars, wear expensive jewellry... these people are expats, they are not indians in the true sense of the word... they are people of indian origin who have abandoned their country for something better... which brings me to the point... something better??? you mean to say india is no longer the best???
all that said... i love india and the ideal's it was built on... i dont care much for its cultural heritage because i think its hogwash... a bunch of stone sculptures of naked women in some cave is not going to feed a hungry starving child in the streets of bombay or calcutta or any other city... take your pick...
i have strong feelings of patriotism as well... but at the same time, i dont feel the need to jump to india's defence even when i know its worng like so many other "patriotic" indians tend to do... i believe true patriotism is recognizing the things that are wrong and trying to fix them... i believe true patriotism is in helping your fellow man, your neighbour, just one person, to become better than what they are... i believe true patriotism is in trying to do the best you can with what you have, while always trying to become better...
now getting back to canada... while i do have a sense of patriotic responsibility towards india, canada is my adopted country... i, like many hundreds of immigrants, decided to abandon my residence and my citizenship (and thereby, my allegence) in india, and become canadian... i along with countless others, pledged my allegence to canada, its queen, its laws and its ideals... i believe that i have an equal, if not greater responsibility towards canada and its soil... i believe i have a responsibility to defend canada and its values... i know that canada has given me much much more than india ever has or ever could... and i believe that i should be ready to give something back...
i also strongly feel that people who harp on and on about india to the detrement of canada, their adopted country, should never have come here in the first place...
enough said...
Bighead,
Average middle class women in India shackled? Exactly where in India did you see that recently? And when you say "empowered" are you only talking about hi-fi executives? What about someone who chooses to be a homemaker and is happy and content, do you call her shackled?
Sorry dude, I'm well aware of the ills of Indian society, but this exaggeration ain't nuthin different from the one that says 95% of immigrants are depressed here. One and same thing.
And women burnt for dowry, how often do you hear that nowadays? And how is it any different from a woman being murdered by her boyfriend when he found out she got pregnant?
There are many recourses available to women in India, may not be as many as those available here, but available they are.
Pardon me, but your post does not sound like its from someone who's lived in India. It sounds more like from someone who watched "City of Joy" and then formed an opinion about India.
I immigranted to Canada and am very happy here, I harp about the good things in life here all the time. That does not mean I think of India as some sort of a hell-hole where my life would've been worthless. Rather I understand that I have chosen one way of life over another and they're a bit different, that's all.
Dubaidesie,
Your post was really a breath of fresh air, we need more of you here. It was really interesting reading and outsider's perspective of India (specially one from someone who's lived in India for so long). And you make a very good point that but for the pervasive dirtiness and corruption, you would've probably prefered to live in India rather than here. I don't know if I would've too, but I would certainly have considered it much more.
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Are you there?
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Bighead,
Average middle class women in India shackled? Exactly where in India did you see that recently? And when you say "empowered" are you only talking about hi-fi executives? What about someone who chooses to be a homemaker and is happy and content, do you call her shackled?
when i say "empowered" i mean have the ability, the authority and more importantly, the chance to make her own decisions about what choices she has available, and what choices she wants to make regarding her own life... not her father's, or husband's, or even her children's choices, but her own...
seriously... how many women, if given the choice of going out and doing something versus staying at home, cleaning and cooking and changing diapers, would choose to do the latter? oh im sure there are a few, but thats the point... there are very few... even in today's society, more and more women want to pursue a career rather than be stuck at home, but in indian society, what is the percentage of such women who actually get the chance to do so??
but forget that.. a simple personal example... one of my wife's close friends who lives in bombay with her inlaws... affluent and educated, definately considered upper class... few months ago i learnt she is not allowed to come out of her room, sit at the dining table to eat, enter the kitchen... for the 5 days or so that she is mensturating... are you seriously going to tell me she does that by choice??
as for where i have seen it, believe me ive seen it... i dont want to get into the specifics on a public board, but if we ever do meet or get a chance to talk, ask me then and ill tell you... suffice to say, ive seen a lot of cases first hand... not just read about them...
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Sorry dude, I'm well aware of the ills of Indian society, but this exaggeration ain't nuthin different from the one that says 95% of immigrants are depressed here. One and same thing.
i agree... my numbers may be completely screwed.. and ill admit it... i pulled them out of the air... but dude, just because my numbers are off, you cant pound your patriotic chest and say it dosnt exist, pretending its not a problem dosnt make it go away...
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And women burnt for dowry, how often do you hear that nowadays? And how is it any different from a woman being murdered by her boyfriend when he found out she got pregnant?
a lot more than any civilized society should allow unfortunately... tell me, what number of burnt women is an acceptable number? one a month? one every couple of months? maybe one every six months? one a year? and thats just the number that become public... there are probably countless others we dont even get to hear about because the cops got paid off to bury it...
as for the boyfriend bit... i never said canada (or any other country for that matter) does not have this problem... all i said was, its not as common place as it is in india...
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There are many recourses available to women in India, may not be as many as those available here, but available they are.
granted... available they are... but how many middle and lower class women (not the so called hi-fi executive types) have the courage to avail of those facilities? or to come forward? not really that many when you look at the overall picture of how many actually need them... and why dont they have the courage? society and its stigma... its a vicious circle... a girl gets raped and becomes pregnant... in india one of her very limited options is, she would kill herself... here she would either get an abortion and live quietly, or have the baby and sue the pants off the guy who did it... the parents, if they find out, would not beat her to death, that is if she didnt take the suicide route... the point is, society does not mandate that she has to die...
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Pardon me, but your post does not sound like its from someone who's lived in India. It sounds more like from someone who watched "City of Joy" and then formed an opinion about India.
thats being pretty presumptious isnt it? lest to say, i have... almost all of my teen years actually...
but then again, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to have it... infact its protected by law, and i cant come and burn your house down for having it... now if we were in india, it would be a different story...
oh, and ive never seen city of joy... so i guess my opinion of india must have come from rambo movies then... since i apparently cant have an independent opinion i arrived at based on my experiences, but rather must adapt someone else's due to my lack of intellegence(??)...
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I immigranted to Canada and am very happy here, I harp about the good things in life here all the time. That does not mean I think of India as some sort of a hell-hole where my life would've been worthless. Rather I understand that I have chosen one way of life over another and they're a bit different, that's all.
commendable... and as i said before.. neither do i... i dont think its a hell hole either... i think its a place where there is a lot of poverty and has a lot of problems that are associated with either poverty (and hence corruption), or with religious fanaticism... contrary to what you may think, i dont hate india, i never did and i never will... what i do hate is *some* of the people who run it... who are more worried about how much money they can siphon off from as many people as possible while they are in power, rather than actually doing something about the problems of the common man...
i never said india as an idea, is a problem.. i said *indians* are the problem... i love the ideals that formed mordern day india... freedom, democracy, equality and all that wonderful stuff... what i dont like is what indians have made it today...
ill ask a very simple question, despite all the progress that is being made... suppose, just suppose only one of the problems, that of hindu's and muslim's chopping each other up, didnt exist... wouldnt you agree india would have been a lot further on in development as a society than it is now?
apparently im not a breath of fresh air so i wont comment on the rest of the post
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