Believe this theory of ID? Why not?
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Posted on: 19-08-05 16:39:36
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Orginally posted by jake3d
did not get that one.
You Said:
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but your matter and thoughts existed before you. It will continue too. Probably not in the entity that you now describe as 'yourself'. But then that is the concept you have chosen. Buddha, Christ etc did not.
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I am saying Matter existed before, not thought. I am saying that What I choose maynot happen in future. What I am now, I am not sure if someone chose me to be like this. I didnt make this choice.
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no absolutes...thats why I said I 'think' so...e.g: there is no GOD is an absolute. An absolute closes the mind. There could very well be a start and end which is measured at a very different scale than what we use to measure/define time.
Abosolutely right.
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because its part of the choice
Ok , well I cant argue that. That was however not my question.
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Before all that you have to decide if you need to eat. If you do the rest becomes easier.
No. If I decide to eat, I still wont know what is being served till I go there.
What is needed to get to a certain point is different from what one gets after reaching there, which we dont know or maynot know.
In this case Hunger is needed for me to go to the restaurant (I could also go for other reasons, in that case the reason will be the "need" ) .
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Before we drag this on forever...all I'm trying to say is that if you close your mind to any possibility...even 'GOD' what you are doing is just that
Another point is that just because someone/many from a/many religion/s say that this is 'GOD' or 'Heaven' and you dont feel that it fits for you...it does not mean that either of the two dont exist(in any form) at all. Its like throwing the baby out with the bathwater imo. You probably need to keep looking with an open mind...to find your answer...even if its just 'i do not know'( If my words do not make sense....then you are on the correct path right now.Ultimately you know how far you are willing to go before you stop...and it will be right for you.)
Again the choice is yours. Its your heaven or hell after all
Maybe I arrived at the possibility of NO GOD because I had an open mind.
Would you concede that?
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Orginally posted by mercury6
I am saying Matter existed before, not thought. I am saying that What I choose maynot happen in future. What I am now, I am not sure if someone chose me to be like this. I didnt make this choice.
i already explained why your thinking already existed....none of us are the 'original' thinkers.
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What I am now, I am not sure if someone chose me to be like this.
you are not sure. If that 'someone' you talk about is your interpretation of 'GOD'(some benevolent/malevolent entity who creates/destroys in some designated heaven) I am not sure either...i think you I and the cynic are on the same page here.
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I didnt make this choice.
that you dont know
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In this case Hunger is needed for me to go to the restaurant (I could also go for other reasons, in that case the reason will be the \\\"need\\\" ) .
you have a need to disprove/prove the existence of god...that is why we are having this debate. If you and DTC were absolutely sure there is no GOD(even your interpretation) we would not be having this debate. The fact is that you are stuck with the popular or 'accepted' interpretation of 'GOD', but you are still wrestling with the fact that it does not meanif anything to you.
I write this based on your lines of thought in the above thread(and is very open to flaws)
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Maybe I arrived at the possibility of NO GOD because I had an open mind.
Would you concede that?
TOTALLY without hesitation. Infact my last para meant exactly that. You are answerable to no one but yourself about what your 'GOD' means to you...or if he exists at all to YOU.
I am here to write a few words, just incase your mind was/is not open.
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Orginally posted by jake3d
you are not sure. If that 'someone' you talk about is your interpretation of 'GOD'(some benevolent/malevolent entity who creates/destroys in some designated heaven) I am not sure either...i think you I and the cynic are on the same page here.
Why does it have to start with GOD or end in one?
When I said I did not choose what I am today and I am not sure I turned out to be as intended. The intention could rest (sp?) with my parents or grand or the the first single celled organism. Why GOD?
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that you dont know
No, I am quite sure that I didnt choose to be 5 feet 2 , thin and pale looking.
My parents chose for me to be like Elvis. But obviously it hasnt turned out to be so. What I dont know is how they made that choice and what they did to enable it, so to speak.
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you have a need to disprove/prove the existence of god...that is why we are having this debate. If you and DTC were absolutely sure there is no GOD(even your interpretation) we would not be having this debate. The fact is that you are stuck with the popular or 'accepted' interpretation of 'GOD', but you are still wrestling with the fact that it does not meanif anything to you.
I write this based on your lines of thought in the above thread(and is very open to flaws)
I dont have a need or have any intentions to disprove existence of what imo is a fictitious entity. The cynic hasnt entered the debate, so I will leave it to him to tell us if this is true or not.
My question was very clear. You chose to present philosophy instead of answering a mere technical question (choice/before/after) about your belief.
Note I dont believe in it or its existence. I am asking you about your belief.
I am not disproving it. I might at best (or worst) be finding fault, but that doesnt disprove a whole system. Everything has fault.
I cannot disprove what doesnt exist. If its a matter of FAITH, then so be it. Which is the main question of the thread. Should ID (a matter of FAITH ) be taught in a science class?
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Orginally posted by mercury6
Why does it have to start with GOD or end in one?
When I said I did not choose what I am today and I am not sure I turned out to be as intended. The intention could rest (sp?) with my parents or grand or the the first single celled organism. Why GOD?
that is what I call it. You can call it the fsm
, in my opinion GOD will not be offended at all...infact he will be fsm.Quote:
No, I am quite sure that I didnt choose to be 5 feet 2 , thin and pale looking.My parents chose for me to be like Elvis. But obviously it hasnt turned out to be so. What I dont know is how they made that choice and what they did to enable it, so to speak.
dunno, but maybe start taking responsibility for somethings yourself. Lance armstrng has fought back cancer. You have the choice to emulate him. However, i'm quite sure you will say i'm unrealistic(that btw is a choice)
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I dont have a need or have any intentions to disprove existence of what imo is a fictitious entity.
I think you do...by your many posts on verious threads where you keep lamenting/commenting about your faith or lack of it.
The thing is we are on such different wavelenghts that you keep seeing 'GOD' as an entity outside. I dont think its anything like that. All I am offering is an alternative to your regular programming
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My question was very clear. You chose to present philosophy instead of answering a mere technical question (choice/before/after) about your belief.
Note I dont believe in it or its existence. I am asking you about your belief.
My belief is that there is no 'one size fits all' GOD. You will have to find out what he/she/it means for yourself. As such it cannot be 'technical' as you put it. Thats why I keep saying its your 'choice'. I cannot get 'technical' because then my 'GOD' would not be GOD. In the end you may even find that fsm IS infact your GOD.
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I cannot disprove what doesnt exist. If its a matter of FAITH, then so be it. Which is the main question of the thread. Should ID (a matter of FAITH ) be taught in a science class?
Like I mentioned before, my definition of GOD is so all encompassing that calling GODs existence into question would call my existence into question.
As for ID...I am not for or against it being taught in Science or Math Class. People like you have to decide, because it means so much to you. I think there are enough of you on both sides of the debate to balance each other out and formulate a plan of action on the basis of your perceived 'self-interest'(yes that word again)
. If I choose to analyse this...I would like students to be open minded to the existence of 'GOD'. However, I am afraid that teaching it in science class is making it too 'technical'. I dont think a young mind would benefit from being technically exposed to such a concept(in a technical class) which most of as adults have difficulty making peace with.
However, there may come a time when the lines between science and faith are blurred even to the layman. Not out of a process of superstition and legend as it probably was in the past, but out of enlightenment. It will not be an either,/or proposition as it is now(due to limits in our understanding). Where the concept of ID and evolution do not cancel each other out, but work together. Where GOD can be multi headed ,dancing on a corpse AND a dying man bleeding on a cross.
Then we will not have the need for such debates. UTOPIA will have arrived.
(would I be describing your 'heaven' mercury?)-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Orginally posted by jake3d
dunno, but maybe start taking responsibility for somethings yourself. Lance armstrng has fought back cancer. You have the choice to emulate him. However, i'm quite sure you will say i'm unrealistic(that btw is a choice)
I take responsibility for the situation I am in right now. But I Cannot control my physical features. Lance armstrong beat a desease. My physical features are not a desease per se. If I am a male, my maleness is not a desease. I cannot fill in for Jennifer Lopez.
Note I didnt say whether being Elvis was good or bad.
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I think you do...by your many posts on verious threads where you keep lamenting/commenting about your faith or lack of it.
The thing is we are on such different wavelenghts that you keep seeing 'GOD' as an entity outside. I dont think its anything like that. All I am offering is an alternative to your regular programming
My lack of faith is just that. It doesnt mean I have an agenda. When I asked the question, you mistook it as an attack on religion, whereby you started presenting me with alternative programming. I didnt ask for it. But I was curious as to what and when of the programming.
I asked "Which heaven, FSM's or Your". You said same thing. And now you are saying it might be different.
Doesnt matter if its outside or inside, Why do you need to define it as GOD, thereby giving it a final place in a supposedly spiritual world, the bounds of which neither you and I know, much like TIME?
I dont even find the need of it, even if such a thing existed.
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My belief is that there is no 'one size fits all' GOD. You will have to find out what he/she/it means for yourself. As such it cannot be 'technical' as you put it. Thats why I keep saying its your 'choice'. I cannot get 'technical' because then my 'GOD' would not be GOD. In the end you may even find that fsm IS infact your GOD.
So heavens are different then for different GODs. I knew it.
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As for ID...I am not for or against it being taught in Science or Math Class. People like you have to decide, because it means so much to you.
No people like me wont decide. The rules of science will decide.
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If I choose to analyse this...I would like students to be open minded to the existence of 'GOD'. However, I am afraid that teaching it in science class is making it too 'technical'. I dont think a young mind would benefit from being technically exposed to such a concept(in a technical class) which most of as adults have difficulty making peace with.
That doesnt mean anything as far as the questions asked is concerned.
Remember this is not a dispute about GOD, existence or non existence, open mindedness.
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However, there may come a time when the lines between science and faith are blurred even to the layman.
You could do it right now. Just provide a hypothesis/assumption that can be tested. And ID can then be taught in a science class.
Actually it may not be simple, but it would be a start.
Evolution already does that. So as of now Evolution can be taught in a science class and ID not. Till then its rightful place is in a Philosophy/Theology/Mythology class.
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Not out of a process of superstition and legend as it probably was in the past, but out of enlightenment. It will not be an either,/or proposition as it is now(due to limits in our understanding). Where the concept of ID and evolution do not cancel each other out, but work together. Where GOD can be multi headed ,dancing on a corpse AND a dying man bleeding on a cross.
I am assuming this is part of the alternatibve programming.
"Multi Headed, dancing on a corpse" -- Which Indian God is this, Kali?
"Dying man bleeding on a cross." - I will leave that one alone. For now.
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Then we will not have the need for such debates. UTOPIA will have arrived.
I have not asked for UTOPIA.
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I once made a mistake, but I was wrong about it.
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Orginally posted by mercury6
I take responsibility for the situation I am in right now. But I Cannot control my physical features. Lance armstrong beat a desease. My physical features are not a desease per se.
I think you did understand what i meant to say...that if someone can beat cancer, one can beat thinness, paleness(if one considered them unappealing).
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My lack of faith is just that. It doesnt mean I have an agenda. When I asked the question, you mistook it as an attack on religion, whereby you started presenting me with alternative programming. I didnt ask for it. But I was curious as to what and when of the programming.
I did not take it as an attack on religion. Infact, i'm not a follower of organised religion. I think most of the spiritual growht comes from attacking or finding the flaws with the same...so as to define ones own spirituality.
There is a saying that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. So maybe this dialogue between us will help one of us in reinforcing our views or someone lese reinforce theirs.
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I sked \"Which heaven, FSM's or Your\". You said same thing. And now you are saying it might be different.
interpreted differently but essentially the same...call it 'peace of mind' or 'GOD' or 'Heaven'. The difficulty for me is to balance the technical with the spiritual in a way that is acceptable to you(though there is little distinction if any for me).
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Doesnt matter if its outside or inside, Why do you need to define it as GOD, thereby giving it a final place in a supposedly spiritual world, the bounds of which neither you and I know, much like TIME?
I dont even find the need of it, even if such a thing existed.
whatever gives you 'peace of mind' then
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So heaven are different then for different GODs. I knew it.
its all the same
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No people like me wont decide. The rules of science will decide.
Rules of science are ever changing. Science does not believe in absolutes either. Infact Creationists INSIST on an Absolute.
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anything as far as the questions asked is concerned.
Remember this is not a dispute about GOD, existence or non existence, open mindedness.
You want me to define it in terms of 'right' and 'wrong'. I Do not think there is any such thing. Already explained that to you
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You could do it right now. Just provide a hypothesis/assumption that can be tested. And ID can then be taught in a science class.
Actually it may not be simple, but it would be a start.
there will not be a need to when the its time. Right now it will be a debate.
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I am assuming this is part of the alternatibve programming.
\"Multi Headed, dancing on a corpse\" -- Which Indian God is this, Kali?
\"Dying man bleeding on a cross.\" - I will leave that one alone. For now.
Do i sense malevolence
. OK replace that with FSM and LSM(landed spaghetti monster)Quote:
I have not asked for UTOPIA.
oh no? I think you long for it
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Orginally posted by jake3d
I think you did understand what i meant to say...that if someone can beat cancer, one can beat thinness, paleness(if one considered them unappealing).
But i dont think you understand me.
How do I fill in for Jennifer Lopez?
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Rules of science are ever changing. Science does not believe in absolutes either. Infact Creationists INSIST on an Absolute.
Thats right.
The rules and methods of science are everchanging and always under scrutiny from within as opposed to religion.
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You want me to define it in terms of 'right' and 'wrong'. I Do not think there is any such thing. Already explained that to you
I agree.
If there is no right or wrong, then tomorrow rape could be perfectly right and legal too. And a God could be found to supports this.
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there will not be a need to when the its time. Right now it will be a debate.
Not quite sure what you meant.
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Right now it will be a debate.
Thats actually one of the victories for the ID Camp. They have created a controversy , a debate, whereas there is none.
Full Points to them for doing so. But not that the debate is there , they better come up with the testable hypothesis. The ball is their court if they want to make a triumphant entry into Science-dom.
Yes, we are talking of things as they stand NOW.
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Do i sense malevolence
Why do you feel threatened?
Dont worry.
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oh no? I think you long for it
You think. But I know.
What else do you think I long for?
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I once made a mistake, but I was wrong about it.
