BELL SYMPATICO USERS BEWARE !
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Posted on: 08-07-06 23:02:25
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
“The difference in our opinions arises from our basic needs. You just want to be alive. I, on the other hand want to be alive and free.”-
LOL! 'Alive and free'...one is a prerequisite is it not? I like to be alive and free too. In that order
Alive and Free is not an order at all. “And” is the keyword here. Many of us will love to die free instead of living in a prison. There will be no meaning of any freedom struggle if living remains the sole motto of mankind. Though that is not what I was concerned about. As I mentioned in my earlier post I can sacrifice my rights of freedom and privacy provided I am certain that these rules will keep me alive and safe.
And if these are just safety measures for increasing my chances of living then I will like to ask again are they really worth it. As I said we could go to a remote village and can live happily ever after. But is that worth the sacrifice I need to commit for that in terms of career and lifestyle?
And my core question remains…the implementations…can I expect these rules will be implemented on the right people and for the right reason and on the right time? Why we see so many cases of plane hijackings when airport everywhere is a high security zone. Is it like there was no security check in the airports before 11th September. Govt. introduces rules and policies and terrorists find the loopholes and a way out. So all I am asking - is it really worth it. Are we safe or does it really enhances our chances of living. Or it is just for us to suffer the security protocols and the terrorists will struck again when they want, anywhere, anytime.
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
Are we safe or does it really enhances our chances of living. Or it is just for us to suffer the security protocols and the terrorists will struck again when they want, anywhere, anytime.
What do you think? The canadian govt is suddently interested in the websites you plan to visit because it has some nefarious scheme to enslave you? What exactly do you think is the reason for 'security protocols'(who is talking about a 'security protocol' anyway)? What exactly is the motive of the govt according to you?
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
And my core question remains…the implementations…can I expect these rules will be implemented on the right people and for the right reason and on the right time?
We are talking about **intelligence gathering** not about enforcing any laws. To enforce a law on the terrorists they need accurate information in the first place.
e,g: the 19 accused in the bombing plot in Toronto and the Montreal student accused in the recent NY subway plot. I have no doubt that the privacy rights of many were compromised just so that the authorities could narrow down to the accused.
In terms of intelligence gathering, there is simply no 'right', time/place /person. If one can pin point those, there would be no need for intelligence gathering. It would only be evidence one is looking for.
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
As I mentioned in my earlier post I can sacrifice my rights of freedom and privacy provided I am certain that these rules will keep me alive and safe.
I guess you are looking for a guarantee that the precautions will work? Apart from walmarts satisfaction guarantee
...how many guarantees do you have in life? Can you guarantee that you will not die in a car crash inspite of airbags? Do you want a guarantee that you will live to...say 90 yrs of age and will have amassed 200 billion $ by that time too?
Anywayyyy I see this discussion heading in a downward spiral. I've already said all that I had to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
Are we safe or does it really enhances our chances of living. Or it is just for us to suffer the security protocols and the terrorists will struck again when they want, anywhere, anytime.
What do you think? The canadian govt is suddently interested in the websites you plan to visit because it has some nefarious scheme to enslave you? What exactly do you think is the reason for 'security protocols'(who is talking about a 'security protocol' anyway)? What exactly is the motive of the govt according to you?
I am just wondering when did I say anything near to this. All I was talking was about the rules, security protocols and its implementation and on a much broader spectrum irrespective of any country or region. I never mentioned about BELL SYMPATICO and its policies and its relevancy or the reason of security protocols anywhere in my posts (though the thread started with that note and therefore proceeded towards a broader field which includes the inconvenience caused by several existing similar monitoring and rules). I never said anything about ur discussion on **intelligence gathering**!!!!! I made some comment against ur few statements where u asked another member about the remedy of the threat and its definition and the concept of freedom and vice versa.
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
And my core question remains…the implementations…can I expect these rules will be implemented on the right people and for the right reason and on the right time?
We are talking about **intelligence gathering** not about enforcing any laws. To enforce a law on the terrorists they need accurate information in the first place.
e,g: the 19 accused in the bombing plot in Toronto and the Montreal student accused in the recent NY subway plot. I have no doubt that the privacy rights of many were compromised just so that the authorities could narrow down to the accused.
In terms of intelligence gathering, there is simply no 'right', time/place /person. If one can pin point those, there would be no need for intelligence gathering. It would only be evidence one is looking for.
Now coming to ur discussion of **intelligence gathering** - The sort of **intelligence gathering** I was discussing here are backed by policies which can go to the extend of intruding into your private life and I have questioned its implementation as those for whom it is made for always has a way of escaping it. And I really feel great if there is any success with the **intelligence gathering** which mite have victimized a lot of innocent. But the rate of this success is so less compared to what we face makes me think about the worth of what we are doing. Now I do not wish to go on here with the never ending list of “intelligence information system” fiascos. And I feel (thats what I FEEL) the intelligence teams can really narrow it down instead of just waiting to pounce on anyone as “there is simply no 'right', time/place /person. We can do a lot better if we can implement the existing policies properly instead of introducing new ways of monitoring.
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
As I mentioned in my earlier post I can sacrifice my rights of freedom and privacy provided I am certain that these rules will keep me alive and safe.
I guess you are looking for a guarantee that the precautions will work? Apart from walmarts satisfaction guarantee
Do you want a guarantee that you will live to...say 90 yrs of age and will have amassed 200 billion $ by that time too?
Anywayyyy I see this discussion heading in a downward spiral. I've already said all that I had to say.
Any discussion doesn’t have any sanity when one person simply fails to understand the exact points other person want to emphasize and is just interested in asking stupid questions and uttering stupid comments, which is completely irrelevant to the ongoing discussion. And I am really amazed to see ur innovative statements on what I want!!!! You simply failed in understanding my points and indulged urself into stupid personal attacks. So I completely agree with u and therefore
I stop wasting any more word here.
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Quote:
Originally posted by ambiguity
Are we safe or does it really enhances our chances of living. Or it is just for us to suffer the security protocols and the terrorists will struck again when they want, anywhere, anytime.
What do you think? The canadian govt is suddently interested in the websites you plan to visit because it has some nefarious scheme to enslave you? What exactly do you think is the reason for 'security protocols'(who is talking about a 'security protocol' anyway)? What exactly is the motive of the govt according to you?
You are looking at a very very miniscule fragment of a broad picture.
I am surprised that you can't see the broader picture.
People who have been opposing you have been looking at the larger picture and not just the BELL SYMPATICO issue. Theya re seeing the Bell issue as justa tip of the iceberg.
ambiguity's point is along these lines..........
"At another Western Union office, an executive who deals with security measures said about 1 percent of the store's 30,000 daily money transfers — about 300 a day — are delayed or blocked because of suspected terrorist links. Thus far, all have proven false, the executive said on condition of anonymity, because she wasn't permitted to speak to a reporter. "
"In the United States, banks, car dealers, title companies, landlords, and employers have used the list to unjustly block scores of ordinary transactions, said Shirin Sinnar, a San Francisco attorney with the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060706/ap_on_bi_ge/emirates_muslim_money" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060706/ap_on_bi_ge/emirates_muslim_money</a>
(reposting the same link posted earlier on this thread)
What ambiguity means is ......
Is it worth it ??????....to "harrass" and invoncenience a "large" number of people with the ridiculous success rate that these measures return ????
"They say Treasury guidelines are sending more people to informal money transfer networks called "hundis" or "hawalas" that have been used by gangsters and terrorists because they circumvent such scrutiny. "
I am not sure if you are aware of the functioning of a criminal mind, and if yes, to what extent ?
It is very easy to sit on the side of the fence and attempt to make judgements about the enemy and attempt to fight them.....
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I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
I guess you are looking for a guarantee that the precautions will work? Apart from walmarts satisfaction guarantee
Do you want a guarantee that you will live to...say 90 yrs of age and will have amassed 200 billion $ by that time too?
Anywayyyy I see this discussion heading in a downward spiral. I've already said all that I had to say.
The latter part of ur comment is one of the most cliche, and one of the most redundant arguments of all time.
You could have even added the use of condoms to the former part of ur argument, and it would have strengthened your "case".
BUT, what the others are stressing on is....."success rate" is the keyword here !!!
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I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible.
But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.
Quote:
Originally posted by mails4sagar
<snip>ambiguity's point is along these lines..........<snip>
<snip>What ambiguity means is ......<snip>
<snip>BUT, what the others are stressing on is....."success rate" is the keyword here !!!<snip>
Thank you for feeling the need to decipher what ambiguity and others actually meant...although they can write for themselves. At the same time you have not answered the questions that I asked you directly. Ofcourse, if you feel they are stupid like our friend we should take the same course as ambiguity and me.
As you can read ambiguity and me have decided not to waste words on each other.
Quote:
Originally posted by mails4sagar
BUT, what the others are stressing on is....."success rate" is the keyword here !!!
How exactly are you planning to measure the 'success rate' of intelligence gathering? If intellingence gathering is to be ruled necessary...does it have to be transparent? If the CSIS, CIA, MOSSAD, RAW etc have to be effective...do they have to make their success rate public? How many times a year should they do this? Will they be able to be effective if all their actions are 'above the board'? If you really knew what they were upto would you still feel you are 'free'
or mediocre?At the least we have agreed that there is a threat and we are just debating on the methods to counter that threat right? Maybe not so I'll ask the question again
Do you think the threat to your 'way of life' from the terrorists are greater than the threat from 'govt monitoring of your privacy'?
Like I mentioned...I feel the threat from the terrorist minded is greater. Not only that I think only one side is pulling out all the stops inorder to ensure that they win, using our liberal systems(including our ideals and notions of freeedom and fairness) against us. What about you?
Dont worry, there are no right answers. We may never know what the right answers are in this one.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Thank you for feeling the need to decipher what ambiguity and others actually meant...although they can write for themselves. At the same time you have not answered the questions that I asked you directly. Ofcourse, if you feel they are stupid like our friend we should take the same course as ambiguity and me.
As you can read ambiguity and me have decided not to waste words on each other.
Your questions aren't stupid, and neither are our differences.
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
Mail4sagar...what exactly is your perception of the 'threat'? What exactly is your stand regarding the terrorists and their designs? Are they a threat at all? Or are they a lesser threat according to you than bell Canada divulging your net browsing habits? What exactly is the remedy to B?
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
At the least we have agreed that there is a threat and we are just debating on the methods to counter that threat right? Maybe not so I'll ask the question again
Do you think the threat to your 'way of life' from the terrorists are greater than the threat from 'govt monitoring of your privacy'?
Like I mentioned...I feel the threat from the terrorist minded is greater. Not only that I think only one side is pulling out all the stops in order to ensure that they win, using our liberal systems(including our ideals and notions of freedom and fairness) against us. What about you?
Don't worry, there are no right answers. We may never know what the right answers are in this one.
We do agree that there is a threat, and i have previously stated that the threat is a lot more than what you PROBABLY perceive...
The difference in opinion is the regarding the means of countering the threat.
The bigger difference is probably our perception of freedom.
Yes, I do think the threat to my 'way of life' from terrorists is greater than the threat from the gov. monitoring my privacy.
(I suppose here is where we disagree.)
I agree that one side is pulling out all the stops.......
Notwithstanding the fact that "the enemy" is 'pulling out all the stops........', I still do not wish to be "monitored" UNLESS I am convinced that the monitoring and the harassment that i go through is making a "substantial" difference on a larger scale.
I suppose this a question of a personal choice...
(it can be based on a lot of factors which include, but are not limited to, personal experiences and encounters.)
The reason that there probably are no right answers is because it boils down to individual choices and preferences, which are based on the WEIGHTAGE THAT WE ASSIGN to the choices on either sides of the scale.......
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I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible.
But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.
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