BELL SYMPATICO USERS BEWARE !
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Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 07-07-06 22:39:27
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 07-07-06 22:39:27
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Vee
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
I'm not in support of sweeping legislative changes as an answer to this either.
However, consider that they have to get it right just once(often under the cover of democratic systems)...we have to get it right always.
Misuse? There are other democratic safeguards(courts) to protect our interests right? This is not exactly Iran is it?
Like you said no easy answers...only wrong decisions either way.
When its extremely dire it will be too late. Thus, extremely dire.
That is the issue here. The safeguards you are hoping for are the one's being reduced or eliminated. It does not have to become as dramatic as another Iran to be bad. Just, say North Korea.
Do not be so sure that the courts can protect you. And like the Privacy commissioner said, the reasons given are SUPERFICIALLY ATTRACTIVE JUSTIFICATIONS.
I do not condone the terrorism or terrorists. But the security agencies are trying to cut corners to apprehend them. They have enough powers and resources to do the job and do it right. They do not need my basic democratic rights to do what they need to do
BV
BV you are missing the point here. I am willing to sacrifice any amount of liberty and freedom, if I know my actions will keep me alive and my folks wont have to come and place flowers at my unmarked grave. As somebody pointed out, If I have nothing to fear..If I am not a wannave JIHADI/LTTE why should I care if they come and search my apt/keep track of browsing habits ?
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Posts: 456
Location: Canada-Glorious and Free
Posted on: 07-07-06 22:58:10
Location: Canada-Glorious and Free
Posted on: 07-07-06 22:58:10
Quote:
Originally posted by Ottawa_Nerd
BV you are missing the point here. I am willing to sacrifice any amount of liberty and freedom, if I know my actions will keep me alive and my folks wont have to come and place flowers at my unmarked grave. As somebody pointed out, If I have nothing to fear..If I am not a wannave JIHADI/LTTE why should I care if they come and search my apt/keep track of browsing habits ?
My response was to jake3d's post. Not yours. However, I did get most of your post (except for the part with a bunch of astericks in it).
The difference in our opinions arises from our basic needs. You just want to be alive. I, on the other hand want to be alive and free. Freedom is elemental a democracy. That is why I am here. You think you have nothing to fear - but oh, you do. Like someone said, everyone has skeletons in their closet. Look at my posts on page 1 of this thread to see what I mean.
Once they put the young man you refered to in jail, he'll still be alive. That is not what I want. I do not want to be -"just alive". If that is your idea of Canada, a penitentiary - please, stop the world, let me get off.
BV
Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 07-07-06 23:36:18
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 07-07-06 23:36:18
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Vee
Quote:
Originally posted by Ottawa_Nerd
BV you are missing the point here. I am willing to sacrifice any amount of liberty and freedom, if I know my actions will keep me alive and my folks wont have to come and place flowers at my unmarked grave. As somebody pointed out, If I have nothing to fear..If I am not a wannave JIHADI/LTTE why should I care if they come and search my apt/keep track of browsing habits ?
My response was to jake3d's post. Not yours. However, I did get most of your post (except for the part with a bunch of astericks in it).
The difference in our opinions arises from our basic needs. You just want to be alive. I, on the other hand want to be alive and free. Freedom is elemental a democracy. That is why I am here. You think you have nothing to fear - but oh, you do. Like someone said, everyone has skeletons in their closet. Look at my posts on page 1 of this thread to see what I mean.
Once they put the young man you refered to in jail, he'll still be alive. That is not what I want. I do not want to be -"just alive". If that is your idea of Canada, a penitentiary - please, stop the world, let me get off.
BV
I guess we are going in circles.. Just one thought..I can only think of freedom, if and ONLY if I am ALIVE..(unless u are referring to the freedom one attains after death !)
Oh I am not allowed to swear here...I cant BLEEP here..so I put those words in asteriks..
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"Aur Vaise Bhi, Sharafat ki jab kapde utarti hai, sabse zyaada mazaa shareefon ko hi aati hai"....(From The Dirty Picture)
Warning !! SCAM ALERT !!
http://www.canadiandesi.ca/read.php?TID=4169 & http://www.canadiandesi.ca/read.php?TID=1379
This is a Useful Health related Tip
http://www.canadiandesi.ca/read.php?TID=3865
Please visit
http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php for some interesting Information ! (Especially 009.005 )
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueLobster
Conversely, we could also allow monitoring of every single activity of the population by institutions/govt. whereever there is any risk assumed (which would pretty much cover everything). Maybe everybody's banking, sports, driving etc should be monitored by the govt. And leave the courts as a safeguard in case the information is misused
Precisely.
the Western Union example i cited earlier on this thread is just a start...
In a way, what it boils down to, in real, practical terms is that even if I am a "normal, law-abiding citizen with nothing to hide", i have, in a way, been restricted from naming my children the way i want. ( would it be a sane decision on my part to let them have some specific names which bar them from sending money across the world ???)
And if I had any analytical skills at all, it wouldnt be hard to figure out that it is just a start....
Just extrapolate the scenario....
With a specific skin color, thanks to the "blanket monitoring", everytime one wandered near a national landmark or a building of any importance to terrorists, one would be questioned.
Pretty soon, there will be "huge" restrictions on the way one can appreciate architecture....(and in no way can one even dream of doing it with a specific kind of headgear)
All in the name of national security !
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
How do you feel about being stopped at the airport due to the color of your skin? It happens...but to tell you the truth...if my wife and kids were travelling in the plane...I would not mind. Its a sign of the times we live in.
If a system 'democracy'(in this case) is nothing but an ideal set in stone...it will be only as good or bad as any other dogma. If it does not take into account the prevailing world situation...it may be on the loosing side of the battle against its enemies(who are not bound by its laws and ideals).
Ultimately self-interest reigns supreme. Thus, sometimes one has to choose amongst the lesser evil(collateral damage). In a perfect world, when all of us learn to get along, there will not be a need to.
Then we'll all gree with you Big Vee
Personally, I do not like the idea of being stopped, but i dont care, coz it is a "sign of the times", and as long as it is not affecting me in a major way....
(I have a friend who is stopped at airports each and every time that she travels to the US form Canada, and questioned. She is around 24, has been studying in Canada for the past couple of years, and was in the Us for around four years prior to that. The questioning maybe acceptable, BUT, it has caused her to miss her flights atleast a couple of times. If thats what needs to be done to protect my life, I personally dont want such security.)
Personally, i have even gone through such "questioning" based on the license plate of my car (in India) !!! And no, it was NOT coz the car had been used for any illegal activites, or had any resemblance to a vehicle used by someone for illegal activities, but just because it happened to be form a particular state and district in India !!!
I have got used to such restrictions and 'harrassment" by now, and can generally figure out ways to circumvent them....(and even have my share of fun with it
)If the system continues to come to terms with reality in the manner that it is trying to do, the day is not far when they will be living and fighting with the same laws and ideals that are used by its enemies....
Consider a simple example....the US has been unsuccessful in capturing the mastermind that it has been wanting "dead or alive"....
Clearly, whatever they have been doing hasn't worked.
Going by the same dictum, of authorising anything and everything in the name of security, the failure is enough reasong to authorise more powers, and to authorise even more "sweeping laws" that result in collateral damage (in terms of the convenience for law abiding citizens (of whichever country)).
The question is, i guess, how far will we go in the name of security ???
Or rather, how far SHOULD we go ????????
Update-
I just remembered/realised I have actually lost the "freedom" to call anyone in Pakistan, Iran, and a few other countries from my Bell cellphone.(not that i need to....)
When i got the phone, i specifically inquired, and was told that I would be able to make calls to ANYWHERE in the world.
(It turned out to be a marketing ploy.)
It is one of the reasons that i m disconnecting the service soon.
(Not my loss, i have other means to get through to wherever i want to, but Bell just lost a customer whose average monthly phone bill has been around $ 700.00)
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I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible.
But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Vee
The difference in our opinions arises from our basic needs. You just want to be alive. I, on the other hand want to be alive and free.
BV
You couldn't have said it better !!!
Personally, i would'nt want ANY security that curbs ANY of my basic freedoms.
"I would rather die of thirst than drink from the cup of mediocrity"
- Stella Artois ad
Update-
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-07/07/content_635777.htm
(Lost the right to have a ringtone of one's choice on the cellphone too
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I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible.
But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
I guess thats why they are using Bell as a filter. There are as much of chances of bell misusing the info as a security guard misusing a surveillnce camera(which is in most public places). It can/may/probably happens...yet we have learnt to live with those cameras.
But those cameras aren't available to a federal network and they're not being used to monitor our life...
I think we would agree that laws are designed on ideals/morals but need to be fine-tuned with circumstances. When the fine-tuning happens though, basically you're taking the laws away from the ideals. And sometimes, that may be necessary.
What I feel however is that there must be VERY strong resistance against aligning laws to circumstances. It must be done as a last resort. Otherwise, the laws don't mean much anyways.
I just feel there's a danger governments and the people will be tempted to give in too easily in the name of security. And then the war we're fighting to preserve "our way of life" is lost before it ever began.
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Are you there?
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueLobster
[I think we would agree that laws are designed on ideals/morals but need to be fine-tuned with circumstances. When the fine-tuning happens though, basically you're taking the laws away from the ideals. And sometimes, that may be necessary.
Precisely. In a democracy, tis works the other way too. I'll get to this later in the same post.
BV i am not talking about this monitoring being ideally right. I think its as right as putting up a boundary with armed men and then calling the space within the boundary 'Motherland(insert your country name here)' and then keeping others out. Both actions are done out of self-interest and preserving 'our way of life'.
Quote:
I just feel there's a danger governments and the people will be tempted to give in too easily in the name of security. And then the war we're fighting to preserve "our way of life" is lost before it ever began.
Thats the beautiful part about living in a democracy. Once people have tasted 'freedom', even if its only an illussion
, we will get back to it. Its a balance between the extremes based on peoples perceptions of the world we live in. The threat to 'security'(or any other cherished interest) causes strong reactionaries to be voted into power. When the threat abates they are voted out, unless they change. This is the strength of a democracy. Given this strength I'd 'err on the side of caution'.In the short term, there are inconveniences to 'freedom'. However, I have faith in our democratic setup that the pendulum will swing back in accordance with the world situation.
NOTE: I hope we can keep religion bashing out of this topic. Yes the interpretation of specific religion does play a role in the current situation. However, this battle can only be won in the Mosques. Our goal should be to empower those who oppose extremist/supremacist ideologies both in and outside the mosques. Stereotyping can only hurt the battle and empower the other side.
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