First of all thanks guys for taking an interest in my topic. I would like to clear some of the things such as my educational background is from U.S. and I do have a permanent job with benefits and all as if right now. I haven’t begin this topic for myself to get someone’s pity so someone might offer me a good job or something, I’ve got plenty of good contacts in U.S. and getting a job for myself would not be a problem. But I am in Canada due to some personal reasons because my relatives moved here. Mr. Ben I’ve started this topic so some good fellow such as you would listen, and others would also. After all if someone is speaking then someone will listen. Why would I start this thread!! I am doing this for future new comers. I feel that what I went threw that no one in future should have to go threw, such as may be your own relatives which will come to this country. “Cooolll _guy” thanks for the advice they are great, but us desi come to Canada for better life then we run to U.S. again for better life, when is it going to end? Why can’t we make the place better then quitting to other place? How much are we going to quit and how many problems are we going to run away from!! That’s why I have started this topic. “morning_rain” thanks for the criticisms, that’s what makes it interesting. But my background shows that when we talk about as you use the term softskills I have already got my degree in U.S. and worked successfully as a Supervisor in a well respected company. But even after that I had to struggle here. You talked about comments/critiques on your professional manner/appearance/dress sense. But those are the things that come later on after someone calls you for an interview. Someone first needs to give the chance to come into the interviews. When you have the best up to date format of resume, plus visiting card, plus a website and yet this happens then what should one think!! I totally agree with you that even Canadian born or anyone can get lay offs. But South Asian peoples who don’t have Canadian education will be starting from scratch again… Let me make myself clear on one thing I am not angry on the Canadian govt. I am frustrated on the companies that will ask this stupid questions, and speaking of softskills the same culture of an office environment also exist in Indian companies too.. Also about learning the ways and culture of universal admin environment can be studied in courses such as “IELTS” or “TOEFL” which even Canadian government honors actually they are honored worldwide. And should there be anything call education equivalent? Why have we not study the same degree in that country then what makes them decide how much South Asian study is low graded then their study, what we learn in 7-8th grad they don’t even start learning those things until there college start, and for example U.S. books for “World History” only includes the part where how U.S. was created. Ask this people to speak more then French, English, or Spanish. Even we know them and more when it comes to it. Take 10 American born people and ask them where is Indian located? 9 out of 10 will say its located in “Middle East”. If Canadian education and skills are so great then why usually a desi kids become the Valedictorians in high school and why the world’s best doctors are desi?
All the desi people have to speak in the same voice it don’t matter if you are Indian or Pakistani or Bangladeshi or Shree Lankan. Let’s start a movement for equal respect for our education and skills in this land.
Location: God's own country
Posted on: 03-08-06 09:07:27
Veeman,
All that you have said is true but Canadian employers think that immigrants (esp. brown skinned) are from remote, underdeveloped, non computerised regions of the world and hence reject you right from when your bio data reaches them. The only exception is IT.
So until the Canadian employers really know that we brown skinned immigrants are at par to the local canadians this discrimination will continue to exist. There is no way that we can reverse this. It might take a few decades to change this . So until then we have to wait.
Networking and a Canadian degree/ education will surely enhance your chances of getting a decent job.
I have heard from some sources (Skills for change facilitator) that some Canadians are peeved if they see American education (my view and surely not for IT). So that could be a reason too.
TK A
Afternote :
Nice analysis / Article by Deepak on the next page. I am sure that that article would be an eye opener to all those over confident people immigrating to Canada from the Gulf / India and who do not have the soft skills / education / experience etc ....
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I am a Gents and not a Ladies.
NOTE: I am not a maven of the english language by any stretch of the imagination but since this is about veemans frustrations in Canada...a few pointers to him about some things he can try to improve on. I admit not all the points may affect his chances of getting a job but maybe it will give him a perspective of where he stands.
I often make mistakes in my posts...perhaps in this one too. However, the repetitive mistakes in veemans post's do not indicate a good understanding of English. I have elaborated on some of the mistakes. Besides...I am gainfully employed and I can afford to make some mistakes.
Quote:
Originally posted by veeman
I feel that what I went threw, that no one in future should have to go threw, such as may be your own relatives which will come to this country.
You keep using 'threw' incorrectly.
what does 'threw' mean? I know what you mean but since you are open to constructive criticism maybe try to improve on your communication skills. 'Threw' is the past tense of 'throw'. As in, to throw a ball.
The word you should be using is 'through'.
Do you draft your Covering letters with words like these? If so You may want to get it proof-read before sending it off. Read on..
Quote:
Why can’t we make the place better then quitting to other place?
This sentence is grammatically incorrect. 'then' is improperly used.
Quote:
But my background shows that when we talk about as you use the term softskills I have already got my degree in U.S. and worked successfully as a Supervisor in a well respected company.
see above and below.
Quote:
Someone first needs to give the chance to come into the interviews. When you have the best up to date format of resume, plus visiting card, plus a website and yet this happens then what should one think!!
Have them proof read. Also 'yet this happens then what should one think!!' indicates a very colloquial use of the language...I am assuming this is how you normally speak too. Your post is littered with such usage.
Quote:
I am frustrated on the companies that will ask this stupid questions,
'these' stupid questions OR this stupid question(not plural).
Similarly, try to stop translating from your language to English.
'Uske uppar gussa' may work in hindi but 'frustrated ON the companies' does not. You can be 'frustrated DUE to the questions of the recruiter' not 'ON the companies questions'
Have you really been educated in the US?
Quote:
Why have we not study the same degree in that country then what makes them decide how much South Asian study is low graded then their study, what we learn in 7-8th grad they don’t even start learning those things until there college start, and for example U.S. books for “World History” only includes the part where how U.S. was created.
refer to above paras and then make necessary corrections to this sentence. e.g: 'Why have we not study...' improper grammar, imporper usage of 'then' etc.
Quote:
Ask this people to speak more then French, English, or Spanish.
improper usageof 'then'. 'These people' not 'this people'
Quote:
Even we know them and more when it comes to it.
Grammar...colloquial usage etc.
Quote:
If Canadian education and skills are so great then why usually a desi kids become the Valedictorians in high school and why the world’s best doctors are desi?
its 'a desi kid' or 'desi kids' NOT 'a desi kids'. An 'a' indicates singular.
Quote:
All the desi people have to speak in the same voice it don’t matter if you are Indian or Pakistani or Bangladeshi or Shree Lankan.
Very colloquial use of the language again. Speaking in 'the same voice' is different from 'speaking with one voice'.
Yes I admit, English is a funny language.
Hope you take this in the right way. I often tend to use english colloquially(read:desi) too. However, I usually do a flip during interviews, presentations, at work etc. A colloquialism is an expression not used in formal speech or writing. Colloquialisms are often used primarily within a limited geographical area.
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Veerman,
What you're saying is partially true but it wouldn't be right to make a generalization. Not all South Asian immigrants are doing labour jobs! There are perhaps same number of success stories however most of those who are successful and happy aren't really interested in screaming and shouting on the discussion boards compared to those who are frustrated and want to blame everyone else other than themselves. If you open your eyes and look around you will see plenty of successful Desis ....so ask yourself what did they do right that perhaps you haven't. How come they were not discriminated and you think you're being discriminated because of your skin colour? Difference in those who are successful and who are struggling is in this job market, besides Technical Skills, generally successful people have excellent soft skills and positive attitude.
I came to Canada in 2001 and since then I am in IT Recruitment business. Before coming here, I was in IT Recruitment field in Australia, US and India so have experienced the difference in different job markets. Every job market is unique in its own sense and one can only be successful if he or she changes quickly and adapt to the local market conditions. Its much easier to change yourself than to change the system and rest of the world! Canadian market is much smaller compared to US or India. In India, more emphasis is given to your education and technical skills but not so much to your soft skills. In US, they value your experience most and then your soft skills. And in Canada (and even in Australia), being a small employer driven job market, more emphasis is given to 'Fit' (that includes your Soft Skills, Personality and Attitude) compared to your technical skills and education.
Consider yourself as a hiring manager and you have 2 candidates in front of you. One has good experience in the relevant field to do the job effectively but lacks interpersonal skills so can't connect well with you and with the rest of the team and on the other side the second candidate has similar experience to do the job effectively but may not have education and certifications like the first candidate but has positive attitude and excellent interpersonal communication skills so he connects well with everyone. If both of them can do the job effectively then who will you hire? Most of the time, in Canadian market, winner would be the one with better soft skills than the one who has better education. Where as in Indian market winner would have been the one with more degrees & certifications than the one who can talk more 'fluff'. That's the reality and the one who understands it will be a winner.
I have placed many new landed immigrants and have seen many more with excellent qualifications & experience but just couldn't make the cut. Those who are successful are smart enough to improve on their communication skills (written and verbal), have positive attitude and besides the technical talk...they can also speak about local issues, weather, sports etc. Those who are successful do their homework before they apply or go for interviews. So they know more about the company, its performance, their challenges and in their mind, they have mapped how and why they are the best fit for this role. Just having a Website and standard resume and covering letter doesn't help in getting the job or even interview. Contents are important and how you present it to the employer / recruiter is more important.
Remember most of the Agencies and Recruiters work on full commission and on contingency basis. That means if their candidate doesn't get the job, they will not get paid. There are thousands of agencies in GTA so for any one open position, perhaps there are more than 10 recruiters presenting their candidates so to be successful, every recruiter aims for the best candidate who not only has exact experience to do the job but also has excellent communication skills to impress their clients. Recruiters will look for overall fit and not just technical skills. Also most of the time, recruiters can present only couple of candidates for each position so they can not present a 'B' Candidate, if they want to win over their competition. If the recruiter doesn't get a feeling that he or she can place you, then they are not going to waste their time in even talking to you. Remember its a full commission business so they have to look after their own interest. You will have to present your resume and covering letter in a way that it will attract their attention (in a positive way!) and they will get a sense that they can place you and make money for themselves!
Its a natural human tendency that you don't get along well enough with others who don't have same interests like you or can't speak the same language that you speak or even the overall appearance (dress and personal hygiene etc) is different than yours. You will connect well with only those who are like you and have similar thinking and interests like yourselves. So for all of us, who are new to this country, key to the success is to adapt ourselves to local culture so perhaps like Cricket, start taking interest in Baseball, Basketball, Football, Golf and offcourse Hockey. Improve on our interpersonal skills, written English and presentation skills. In this job market packaging is equally important if not more than the contents so only technical skills and education is not good enough. This is not a candidate short market...there are more qualified applicants than the number of available jobs so to be a winner, you have to be an all rounder and just not a well educated techy (however, don't get me wrong...that is also equally important!). To be successful... you have to understand the pulse of the market and triggers of everyone in the hiring chain. And to do that put yourself in their shoes and think, if you were the other person, what will you do....most of the time you will find the answer. Its tough but not impossible and those who understand and adapt this get a quick success and others learn this in a hard way!
And for those who are thinking of Canadian Citizenship as a door to enter in US market, please be prepared to face same or more challenges in that market...otherwise you will be terribly disappointed. I don't think its correct to right off 3 years (i.e. almost 10% of your professional career period) of your peak period in professional career in anticipation of better jobs in US. After a gap of 3 years, it would be more difficult for you to find a right job in US so focus on present and try to make it better than living on some hypothetical assumptions that after these 3 years of so called 'vanvass' your life will suddenly change and US companies will woo you to join them! Be realistic and focus on your weaknesses than to blame the system and local Canadians.
Good luck and hope this will change the way you're interpreting the response (or no response!) that you're getting from Canadian companies.
Cheers,
Location: British Columbia
Posted on: 03-08-06 12:49:52
Quote:
Originally posted by veeman
“morning_rain” thanks for the criticisms, that’s what makes it interesting. But my background shows that when we talk about as you use the term softskills I have already got my degree in U.S. and worked successfully as a Supervisor in a well respected company. But even after that I had to struggle here.
Veeman,
education doesnt give you soft skills. Having a PhD doesnt automatically mean you have 'soft skills'.
Quote:
When you have the best up to date format of resume, plus visiting card, plus a website and yet this happens then what should one think!!
Now i'll ask a stupid question
What is a "visiting" card? Quote:
.. Also about learning the ways and culture of universal admin environment can be studied in courses such as “IELTS” or “TOEFL” which even Canadian government honors actually they are honored worldwide.
I may be mistaken, but doesnt TOEFL stand for "test of english as a foreign language'. ENGLISH language assessment. How does this teach one about the culture and 'ways' of a universal administrative environment?
Quote:
what we learn in 7-8th grad they don’t even start learning those things until there college start, and for example U.S. books for “World History” only includes the part where how U.S. was created.
I dont want to make an assumption but are you referring to both US and Canadian education systems or just the USA? If so - go ahead (I dont mind) JK. However Ive been educated here - world history means learning WORLD history.
Quote:
Take 10 American born people and ask them where is Indian located? 9 out of 10 will say its located in “Middle East”. If Canadian education and skills are so great then why usually a desi kids become the Valedictorians in high school and why the world’s best doctors are desi?
"Indian"? I assume you mean "India"? Or the Indian ocean??
My experience has been similar - some people I have spoken with are not well versed in AMERICAN geography let alone world geography.
Do you realize you have contradicted yourself with the statement "If Canadian education and skills are so great then why usually a desi kids become the Valedictorians in high school "??
Are you trying to say that its a privilege/prestigious honor to become a valedictorian in a Canadian school (showing the student's abilities in a school system that is very challenging..hence admitting that Canadian education has high standards?) or else you are saying that canadian education is so easy that even a Desi can become a Valedictorian. In essense you are asking "if canadian education is so great, why are desi's being made valedictorians (ie/ why are schools so stupid to let desi's become valedictorians"
Please clarify.
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~ Morning rain
Quote:
Originally posted by morning_rain
Now i'll ask a stupid question
Visiting card (India)= Business card (Canada)
Nikhil
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posted on: 03-08-06 14:16:52
Business card is also the term used in the US.
Now one would think a US educated and employed individual would tend to use the term "Business Card" instead of "Visiting Card".
Anyway, the above is again a part of using the right terms or learning to use the right terms for the country one lives in. That's part of the broadly/loosely defined "soft skills".
When I say "Zee" for letter "Z" in the US and Windsor (yeah, Windsor behaves pretty much like Detroit) and "Zed" when I travel to Canada interior, I have a sense of better compatibility with the rest and am able to connect easily with the rest. Same applies referring to temps in C or F depending on where you are.
Same theory applies when traveling to other countries. When I am in Germany, I try to pronounce the names of towns the right way and properly and not "Americanise" (or Canadianise, for that matter) the pronounciation. Believe it or not, people appreciate that.
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Dimple2001
