Are there any Indians or are we just a bunch of Gujjus, Bongs, Sikhs, Brahmins,
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Posts: 1920
Location: British Columbia
Posted on: 11-02-06 20:37:17
Location: British Columbia
Posted on: 11-02-06 20:37:17
Quote:
Orginally posted by Big B.
Now to clarify one oter point - I do not resent anyone seeking out another in a gesture of friendship - only feel sad that people restrict their universe so completely by narrow parochial definitions and assumptions about whom they will get along with. First seek our decent humans and if they also happen to be of the same caste, sub caste, state, relsiogion and natinality -- yippie its a big bonus day!
Finally - I see no conflict between nationalism and humanism - they do not have to be mutually exclusive., Insecurity makes people feel that way. I can be very proud of my nationality and yet be good to others and respect their nationalities too. Why does my nationalism have to take the form of imposing my superiority over others.
Take a deep breath all- all listen to Lennon's Imagine once again...dim the lights...relax and absorb the melody and the lyrics...be in the moment...and dream for 5 minutes. If we do not dream..then how do we make them come true?!!!!
Quote:
Big B:
You write "seek out decent human beings" - does this mean you are in a position to make judgement on others..to determine if they fit into your definition of decent? To me..a good human being does not make judgements on others..but accepts others faults and shortcomings..works with what he/she can and then separates themselves if they cannot reconcile with that individual.
Also, by seeking out people in your own 'nationality'..arent you excluding others? Yes you can be respectful to people of 'other nationalities' as you indicate - however this shows that you consider yourself separate from them. Ie/ Us and them mentality.
I come back to my earlier post on this thread - and I have noticed a few others have made similar comments - one cannot consider themselves a good indian (or canadian or whatever) without finally coming to being a good human being.
However - I think its human nature to want to belong. For many people when they say "I am a punjabi christian/sikh/hindu " it tells them they belong to a group. A sense of belonging which may be more so in Immigrants or even those of us born in countries other than those of our ethnic origin .
Even 'decent' people can want to belong.
I am very glad you posted this question because I can see it has got a lot of us thinking.
thx
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~ Morning rain
Quote:
Orginally posted by morning_rain
Quote:
Orginally posted by Big B.
Now to clarify one oter point - I do not resent anyone seeking out another in a gesture of friendship - only feel sad that people restrict their universe so completely by narrow parochial definitions and assumptions about whom they will get along with. First seek our decent humans and if they also happen to be of the same caste, sub caste, state, relsiogion and natinality -- yippie its a big bonus day!
Finally - I see no conflict between nationalism and humanism - they do not have to be mutually exclusive., Insecurity makes people feel that way. I can be very proud of my nationality and yet be good to others and respect their nationalities too. Why does my nationalism have to take the form of imposing my superiority over others.
Take a deep breath all- all listen to Lennon's Imagine once again...dim the lights...relax and absorb the melody and the lyrics...be in the moment...and dream for 5 minutes. If we do not dream..then how do we make them come true?!!!!
Quote:
Big B:
You write "seek out decent human beings" - does this mean you are in a position to make judgement on others..to determine if they fit into your definition of decent? To me..a good human being does not make judgements on others..but accepts others faults and shortcomings..works with what he/she can and then separates themselves if they cannot reconcile with that individual.
Also, by seeking out people in your own 'nationality'..arent you excluding others? Yes you can be respectful to people of 'other nationalities' as you indicate - however this shows that you consider yourself separate from them. Ie/ Us and them mentality.
I come back to my earlier post on this thread - and I have noticed a few others have made similar comments - one cannot consider themselves a good indian (or canadian or whatever) without finally coming to being a good human being.
However - I think its human nature to want to belong. For many people when they say "I am a punjabi christian/sikh/hindu " it tells them they belong to a group. A sense of belonging which may be more so in Immigrants or even those of us born in countries other than those of our ethnic origin .
Even 'decent' people can want to belong.
I am very glad you posted this question because I can see it has got a lot of us thinking.
thx
Thanks for your comments and I am glad it has set some of us thinking.
Good Indian = Good Human - absolutely correct - why was that ever in doubt or why were the two ever conflicting?
I never mentiooned that I was deliberately seeking out Indian frends or of any particluar nationalioty.All I have ever said is why do we not wish to first seek out people who we can interact with and have a stimulatiing conversation with, have fun times together with and share a laugh and an argument with. Such traits can also constitute a group...can it not and satisfy our inert need to belong to a group. Our family is a group is it not? So too are our friends...only difference is that we choose one and not the other!\
So like Indians or Americans or Muslims and Sikhs are types of grous...so too are criminals, lifers, classical musicians, stand up comedians, gays, fanatics, terrorists, easy goinng people, humourous, serious, accountants...the list is endless...all I am saying is...give everyone a chance...do not automatically assume that you will get along with someone just becasue he is also of the same religion or nation.
Finally, I am never one to pass judgement. I was not pronouncing judgement by saying 'decent human beings'. In my book, some one who is decent is a person who is tolerant to others more dissimialr to him than similar. that's all.
thanks again and take care.
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Big B
Quote:
Orginally posted by Big B
Hope you can appreciate my point of view. It is different from yours. I am not saying that yours is wrong. If it works for you and your kids - go for it. It is not my game plan though.
If only you had started with this sentence or something similar to this, I would have considered it very 'civil' - but your very first few posts created a 'spark' which conveyed that in your view anyone who, in MR's words, wants to belong to a group, is not a good Indian.
I have many reasons for having similar views as outlined by 'naudurivsm' including, if need be, forcing my children to speak their mother tongue, and in my view, those who do not do this, are not doing justice to the very basis of society, where each group, over the ages, has developed some peculiarities like language, food, rituals etc. etc. But then as you said, they are my views and may be different from yours - and that itself leads to making of different groups - one which believes in group of Punjabi/Bengalis/Marathis (by the way, please note I also do not like someone calling them Punjus/Bongs..........it is like purposely making fun of them in my view ).
When people live in their own country, they make extra effort to go out and meet people of different states/religion/ethinicity to get a different perspective and enjoy the differences. When they migrate to a different country (like Indians to Canada), they are surrounded by people of different ethinicity and so have to conversly make an extra effort to find people of the same group they belong to and have grown up with. And so there is nothing wrong in looking out for their own kind.
Now I am a Rajasthani from Jaipur - you might not be the same. So If fate makes us meet, I might be friendly with you, but still I would at times look for a my kind because:
1. I would like to eat at my place and at other's place the same Rajasthani Gatte ki sabji, or Papar ki sabji. (which means I would be looking for a marwari)
2. I would like to get nostalgic at times (and more often than experiencing new adventures) about the chori from amrood ke paed at the Rambagh palace hotel in jaipur, which only a jaipuri would know and be a part of (which means I would be looking for a person who comes from or sub-division and knows what Rambagh Palace was)
3. I would like to speak the same 'arrey beti ka baap' in jaipuri style that I used to love when I was in India(which means I would be looking for a jaipuri who understands that slang from Rajasthan)
4. I would like to talk in Hindi and discuss some writers or Hindi movies (which means I would be looking for someone who speaks Hindi and has same interests in that language as mine)
5. I would at times like to discuss Paranthe wali gali, jaipur ke ghewar, bikaner ki bhujia, bombai ki pav bhaji, udipi ka masala dosa, rameshwaram ke mandir etc etc (which will mean I am looking for an Indian who has lived in India.
So what is wrong in looking for Punjabi/Gujrati friends? It is a natural instinct of human beings and as I said earlier, the very basis of creation of society.
Chandresh
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Chandresh
Advice is free – lessons I charge for!!
By the way, I have moved the thread to our native country.........from Canadian Sakhi, since even if Big B is a woman, the topic has nothing to do with Sakhi!
Chandresh
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Chandresh
Advice is free – lessons I charge for!!
Quote:
Orginally posted by Big B
Try doing the follwing;
> Making a trip back to India at least once every two years,keeping
them in touch with your /our Homeland and the culture over there. -
I know of many who are dragged unwillingly by their parents back to India - what is important is not the frequency of the visits but that they look forward to going back and being with family and experiencing the different things that India has to offer during their stay....and not turning up their noses at what they see when they get there.
> Sharing with them the culture and values
That ought to happen irrespective. That ought to be happening in any home.
> Also make them speak at least the "Mother toungue fluently" including
writing. - if required put them in tutions etc.
Again - no force to be applied - no forced tuition - they should learn it naturally in their growing years by hearing their parents speaking it as effortlessly as any other language and they will pick it up naturally too - this way it is a natural process of absorbtion - rather than ramming it down their throat.
> visitng religious places ( temples ) regulasrly and also conducting the
pujas at home as well, specially for all ocasssions etc.
Formal religious pratice and rituals has no correlation with being good or spiritual. I abhor rituals as I see them as being done by a majority more for show than with any heart felt devotion. If I need to communicate with my creator, I do NOT need any middleman. I can have a conversation with him/her whilst walking down the street, whilst bathing, before I go to sleep. So why the fixation on formal ceremony. I believe in teaching my children to respect their parents, grandparents, elders, freinds and fellow humans and then to respect God. There is no compulsion here agin to visit a Church or a temple or a osque at a detremined frequency. Faith is internal and private - most ceremonies and rituals are public performances of devotion.
> If they are girls then you can make them learn cultural dances etc.
Again if they show a natural liking towards it. Sure the kids must be exposed to Indian musaic and dance like they should be expposed to oethrs types of arts too. They shoudl be encouraged to take up and pursue and perfect whatever they enjoy. If not - with force nothing lasting will be achieved. On the contrary - they might get turned off everything that we may have tried to introduce them to.
Hope you can appreciate my point of view. It is different from yours. I am not saying that yours is wrong. If it works for you and your kids - go for it. It is not my game plan though.
I agree with your views, absolutely no offense. we can not force anything upon and should not be doing that.
Sorry if the sentence structuring was like that, all i am saying is we should see them pick our "Indian Values" one way or other.
We are pruond to see ouor children follow this.
By the way in my case it is slightly different and easier, since my kids were born in India but are overseas right from the age of 3 and they are totally with us in terms of values and culture etc and I am proud of them.
At the same time, I trust you when you say your kids already are aware of the Value System etc(Per your first reply to my post) which is very nice to hear. God bless them.
..
Apun knowing the people in India not speaking 'mother tongue' also. Apun ka ek surd dost here from Mumbai,he is not the talking Punju,reading it to door hogaya, and he living 26 years in India b4 coming here few years ago.
Similar the fate of other peoples also the Sindhis.
And why only girls for doing cultural dances?Gopi Krishna getting wild,yaar.
But the grouping always happening, animal instinct yaar. Also Jewish people the hanging together,Cameroon people,Djibouti people,Egyptian people,Lebanese people sab yaar,Indians not alone in yeh aspect yaar.
Chal
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hinglish zindabad
Quote:
Orginally posted by Big B
Thanks for your comments. They are appreciated like I do all comments when put forward in a decent and civil manner. I have never felt offended by anything other than rudeness, disrespect and fanaticism.
Isn't that all of us though? I'm just saying that thicker skin is warranted here, just from experience.
Quote:
Now to clarify one oter point - I do not resent anyone seeking out another in a gesture of friendship - only feel sad that people restrict their universe so completely by narrow parochial definitions and assumptions about whom they will get along with. First seek our decent humans and if they also happen to be of the same caste, sub caste, state, relsiogion and natinality -- yippie its a big bonus day!
For me, its not even a bonus of any sort. First of all, caste and religion never come into question as far as I'm concerned. I'm with you on this one, I don't think I've ever sought people from my community to socialize with. I'm fine however if someone else wants to do that, I'm sure they have their reasons.
Quote:
Finally - I see no conflict between nationalism and humanism - they do not have to be mutually exclusive., Insecurity makes people feel that way. I can be very proud of my nationality and yet be good to others and respect their nationalities too. Why does my nationalism have to take the form of imposing my superiority over others.
I'm not saying there's any superiority involved, just saying that once the lines start to blur as far as differences go, they blur across nationalities as well (or IMHO they should).
Quote:
Take a deep breath all- all listen to Lennon's Imagine once again...dim the lights...relax and absorb the melody and the lyrics...be in the moment...and dream for 5 minutes. If we do not dream..then how do we make them come true?!!!!
Used to do that as a kid in India. Its even more fun when you're listening to it on a walkman (no Ipods in those days) while sleeping on the terrace of your house on a warm summer night looking out for UFOs.
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