Is it all over for the India?
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Posted on: 06-06-12 22:02:46
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Originally posted by elmer fudd
It is silly to reduce this argument to Congress or BJP. They are all sold on the idea if the money poured in their hands is the right amount. Btw, Modi is on the forefront. He has already allowed(or is in the process of allowing) Walmart in Gujarat.
Not really .... these two parties are voices of majority of Indians. They are not part of some dicatatorship that they have to loot and then run away. They have to live and die in India.
Every sector that has been liberlized has seen growth and seen improvement in services. Take banking ..... even with foreign players, the nationalised banks have been able to improve their service which earlier they had no incentive. So inspite of stories of doom and gloom for natioanlised banks, liberlization has improved the standards.......
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Originally posted by BlueLobster
See article in Wikipedia on socialism. Some big words here for you, so I'll simply cut and paste the India piece
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India
Main article: Economy of India
After gaining independence from Britain, India adopted a broadly socialist-inspired approach to economic growth. Like other countries with a democratic transition to a mixed economy, it did not abolish private property in capital. India proceeded by nationalizing various large privately run firms, creating state-owned enterprises and redistributing income through progressive taxation in a manner similar to social democratic Western European nations than to planned economies such as the USSR or China. Today India is often characterized as having a free-market economy that combines economic planning with the free-market. It did however adopt a very firm focus on national planning with a series of broad Five-Year Plans
Your move
Hmm ... on the outset , something ironical about you - when it comes to your purpose , you quote the net and when some one else quotes it and it flouts your thoughts , you discard it .... double standards !!
Coming back to India's economy - no where will you find that India's economy was socialist as otherwise you would not have Tatas & Godrej & Birla and Singhanias & Modis & Ambanis .....
And today also India is not a free market .... for eg in India to set up shop , you still need an Indian partner viz Toyota Kirloskar , Modi Continental and the like .. unlike the case in the US where any foreign company can set up shop w/o collaboration.
Which was not so earlier where the economy was protected from foreign companies hence the doctrine of protectionism .... and like I said there s a lot of difference b/w these terms ...
And BTW for your knowledge and you might wish to dig deeper into this - WTO / GATT happened in early 90s (close to India's gold fiasco ) .... and the IT boom in the later half ....
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Fido.
No I cannot enlighten with you that since you have been doing it all along and now seem to be backtracking .Lets see you began here ..... Mark the use of the word 'will' .... which implies certainty & future enlightenment ....
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A country in which the fundamentals deteriorate while people get richer cannot expect to lead anything. There will be pockets of progress however it will be scattered and disorganized, never complete. And when the world turns it attention to another country (Brazil for instance), things will go downhill.
China is a bit different because of their manufacturing and organization, however any notion that China will overtake the US with respect to true super-power status is pure hogwash as well. You need to be an open nation to lead the world, not the black box China is currently. Without democracy, China will at best continue the status quo.
And after 12 pages were forced to come to this
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Originally posted by BlueLobster
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IF --- now you are doing better .... IF is a very big word in almost all your arguments ... IF this happens ... IF China fails ... who knows whether that happens or not ... So all your assumptions are best speculations as I have already said .....
What IF that does not happen ??? Would you take your words back then ???
huh? We're talking about the future here. Can you enlighten us with your 100% certain theory?
So let us see what you have been trying to say :
a. India/China cannot rise because there s lot of internal problem
- sorry thats happening already and will continue despite all your internal problems .......... How come we are seeing growth in these economies alongwith pollution , corruption & dictatorship ?? ... its happening and show me a link where it shows it is not !!!! ....... so that means internal problems and growth can happen side by side ....
b. You have been saying that USSR collapsed because of internal issues and I maintain it was economic issues .... GCCs are not democracies but still live contently as the economies are good ..... Match a good economy with a strong military and you ve got a potent combination for a super power ...
Can you explain against your thinking & statements that it has never happened and will never happen - how come USSR rose to a super power and charted the world's direction for 50 long years .... it should never have been able to reach that place per your logic ?? .. it .led the world for 50 years so it has happened before
How come China has grown into an economic giant and emerging as a super power despite all the internal problems ?
It should not have been able to reach here per your argument ?? it is happening now and there s no indication that it will collapse and go the USSR route .... unless you speculate which is what you have been doing .........
But then do not claim with certainty that it has not happened and will not happen !!!
As long as India & China have comparative advantage of cheap labor , and there s free trade , these countries will continue to grow upwards ..... corruption or no corruption - communism or no communism .... that my friend s the point I m trying to prove and a point you are stubbornly refusing to take ....
Check !!
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Fido.
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Originally posted by Fido
Hmm ... on the outset , something ironical about you - when it comes to your purpose , you quote the net and when some one else quotes it and it flouts your thoughts , you discard it .... double standards !!
Coming back to India's economy - no where will you find that India's economy was socialist as otherwise you would not have Tatas & Godrej & Birla and Singhanias & Modis & Ambanis .....
And today also India is not a free market .... for eg in India to set up shop , you still need an Indian partner viz Toyota Kirloskar , Modi Continental and the like .. unlike the case in the US where any foreign company can set up shop w/o collaboration.
Which was not so earlier where the economy was protected from foreign companies hence the doctrine of protectionism .... and like I said there s a lot of difference b/w these terms ...
And BTW for your knowledge and you might wish to dig deeper into this - WTO / GATT happened in early 90s (close to India's gold fiasco ) .... and the IT boom in the later half ....
Actually, there is no doubt that the Indian economy was based on Nehru's socialist ideology. I gave you the link - there are several more on the net if you want to research. This is a well known fact and you can dance around it all you want, it does not change it. I never said India was a fully socialist country, that is your fabrication or inability to read.
The stalled economy that grew out of this thinking was a hybrid of multiple "swadeshi" ideologies, but stalled nevertheless. The economy took of with the liberal reforms of the 90s and India was MUCH engaged in a much more strategic partnership with the United States, which has boosted growth tremendously. Another point that destroys your "internal functioning of country has nothing to with economic growth" theory.
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Are you there?
Wrong again. There is absolutely no difference in that first post I made and the last one. Read slowly and carefully again, I've highlighted parts so that even you can understand. Tell me what you're missing after...
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China is a bit different because of their manufacturing and organization, however any notion that China will overtake the US with respect to true super-power status is pure hogwash as well. You need to be an open nation to lead the world, not the black box China is currently. Without democracy, China will at best continue the status quo.
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Let's see how long China can keep up with their communist system. If this does not change, they will be a footnote in history just like your beloved USSR.
Translation : Both statements are the same. China will not overtake the US with its current communist system.
You obviously can't provide a hypothesis since you don't have one, you're hung up on a definition that I clearly said I don't care about.
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So let us see what you have been trying to say :
a. India/China cannot rise because there s lot of internal problem
Wrong again. You should hire someone to read for you. Check my FIRST post where I said it is not all over for India and it will recover. Also, I never said China cannot "rise", the first post says it cannot overtake US with its current system.
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- sorry thats happening already and will continue despite all your internal problems .......... How come we are seeing growth in these economies alongwith pollution , corruption & dictatorship ?? ... its happening and show me a link where it shows it is not !!!! ....... so that means internal problems and growth can happen side by side ....
Again, reading issue. Read the last post where I speak of "sustainability". Look up that word.
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b. You have been saying that USSR collapsed because of internal issues and I maintain it was economic issues ....
Actually, you maintain all kinds of falsehoods - does not mean anything.
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Can you explain against your thinking & statements that it has never happened and will never happen - how come USSR rose to a super power and charted the world's direction for 50 long years .... it should never have been able to reach that place per your logic ?? .. it .led the world for 50 years so it has happened before
You didn't answer a simple question. If that was such a great model, how come it collapsed?
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How come China has grown into an economic giant and emerging as a super power despite all the internal problems ?
Read my first post again. There are two things that will happen in the future (and since this is the future, this is my prediction. Unless you have a crystal ball, that is all you can do)
1. China will continue the status quo for a decade or two before sputtering out
2. China will introduce far reaching reforms and become a free country, maybe not on the scale of the United states but much better than today. In that case, they will continue on the growth trajectory because it will be a much more sustainable model.
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It should not have been able to reach here per your argument ?? it is happening now and there s no indication that it will collapse and go the USSR route .... unless you speculate which is what you have been doing ......…
Please show me where I said it will go the USSR route and collapse.
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As long as India & China have comparative advantage of cheap labor , and there s free trade , these countries will continue to grow upwards ..... corruption or no corruption - communism or no communism .... that my friend s the point I m trying to prove and a point you are stubbornly refusing to take ....
Cheap labor comes from population, which is also a huge resource hog. Wait and watch.
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Check !!
haha. Only if we make your pawns queens.
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Are you there?
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Originally posted by BlueLobster
There are two things that will happen in the future (and since this is the future, this is my prediction. Unless you have a crystal ball, that is all you can do)
1. China will continue the status quo for a decade or two before sputtering out
2. China will introduce far reaching reforms and become a free country, maybe not on the scale of the United states but much better than today. In that case, they will continue on the growth trajectory because it will be a much more sustainable model.
Only fools make predictions !!!
If you make a predict don't go flip flop by saying - 'we are talking future here and nothing can be said with certainity ' ....
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huh? We're talking about the future here. Can you enlighten us with your 100% certain theory?
You have still not been able to answer 2 simple and you are dodging them
a. How did the USSR rose to and maintained only other super power status for 50 years despite its gross malfunctioned internals ??? That means it has happened before !!
b. How come China again with mis internals (per you ) is approaching a super power status without all the liberties and other things that you have ranted .... ? ...
This means there are factors other than what you consider which make a country a super power ...... as I have rightly put - economy & military ... China has both and there are no reasons to believe (other than your predictions
) that it will continue to fall !!Superpowers have happened before and are currently happening (without your harped about fundamentals) and what happens in the future is a fool's guess !!!
At least we agree on one thing -- wait & watch !!
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Fido.
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Originally posted by Fido
Only fools make predictions !!!
If you make a predict don't go flip flop by saying - 'we are talking future here and nothing can be said with certainity ' ....
Wow, you're stupider than I thought. Only fools make predictions? hahaha.
I'll add this to the "liberty and blah blah list..."
In the meantime, couple of fools who made predictions
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-10/tk-predictions-past-steve-jobs-fulfilled
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/05/05/science-gravity-probe-b-relativity.html
Must feel great to get all your theories bulldozed...
and yet, you keep on trying.Quote:
You have still not been able to answer 2 simple and you are dodging them
a. How did the USSR rose to and maintained only other super power status for 50 years despite its gross malfunctioned internals ??? That means it has happened before !!
It was a farce. It collapsed. What part of that are you still missing? What did you, work for the KGB that you're going on and on about a collapsed power?
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b. How come China again with mis internals (per you ) is approaching a super power status without all the liberties and other things that you have ranted .... ? …
Did you miss the sustainability word?
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This means there are factors other than what you consider which make a country a super power ...... as I have rightly put - economy & military ... China has both and there are no reasons to believe (other than your predictions
Superpowers have happened before and are currently happening (without your harped about fundamentals) and what happens in the future is a fool's guess !!!
Of course there are other factors, where did I say these were the only factors? I used the word fundamentals for sustained growth. But yes, you've already proven you can't read.
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At least we agree on one thing -- wait & watch !!
There's universal agreement on that, we have no choice.
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