SADAM HANGED to death
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Posted on: 02-01-07 16:53:18
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
"....An 'independent media' can be sustained only when all parts of the world have accepted a single 'world order'. Under current circumstances such 'independent media' only serves to undermine the foundations it is built on...."
You lost me there. Care to elaborate, please. :-)
If an independent media is to uphold truth...all sides should have access to such independent media and self-introspection. That is ALL sides should play by the same rules.
e.g:If the media provided the live coverage of the bombing of Dresden(a civilian city) during ww2...most people would be against the same. To put it in simple terms...it was barbaric and indiscriminate and the bombing of Iraq pales in comparision.
The bombing of Dresden did break the German morale and could have been one of the factors of the collapse of the third reich.
However, if the injustice(official death count 35000) of it were to guide foreign policy and war strategy...the third reich would have gone on for some more time.
Right now, if we all in the west buy in to the 'truth', and expect foreign policy to be driven on that basis...it may mean a good drop in our standards of living and thus our self-interests, simply because we are expecting our govts to protect our economic interests by being 'fair' when the rest of the world is not. In time, media will have been partly responsible for destroying the very conditions that created it.
If you fight a war in the court of public opinion and your opponent does not have to, he has an advantage.
On the other hand if an independent media is allowed to flourish all over the world e.g: islamic states, dictatorships , China etc. Then the playing field would be more even. Well, that means enforcing democracy...errr...maybe not
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"....If an independent media is to uphold truth...all sides should have access to such independent media and self-introspection. That is ALL sides should play by the same rules. ..."
are you saying CNN dosnt have access to the information that Amy Goodman of democracy now does?
".....e.g:If the media provided the live coverage of the bombing of Dresden(a civilian city) during ww2...most people would be against the same. To put it in simple terms...it was barbaric and indiscriminate and the bombing of Iraq pales in comparision. The bombing of Dresden did break the German morale and could have been one of the factors of the collapse of the third reich....."
It should have never come to this in the first place. The reich would have been nipped in the bud if the Germans were not tuned into Nazi propoganda, again free independent media would have again played a positive role here. Six million Jews shouldnt have died before the west woke up.
"...Right now, if we all in the west buy in to the 'truth', and expect foreign policy to be driven on that basis...it may mean a good drop in our standards of living and thus our self-interests, simply because we are expecting our govts to protect our economic interests by being 'fair' when the rest of the world is not..."
On the contrary I think the rest of the world is and we are not.
Re "The House of Saud" How can you predict that oil prices wont fall if the house of Saud fell. I find it hard to believe Big oil and the House of Saud are actually looking out for us!! Shouldnt there be a demand and supply play that decides the price of all. Of course that is something that wont happen by 4 PM today it takes generations and generations of change. We know oil will not last for ever but then thats the way human evolution takes place isnt it we change, adapt, invent and move on to other new means not necessarily backwards as you put it. This process should have started decade ago if it wernt for us spending billions to $ to suck up the last bit of oil from someone elses backyard.
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
are you saying CNN dosnt have access to the information that Amy Goodman of democracy now does?
no I'm talking about the media in the countries which are not democracies.
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
It should have never come to this in the first place. The reich would have been nipped in the bud if the Germans were not tuned into Nazi propoganda, ??
The propoganda only tapped into dormant german feeling of oppression/humiliation after ww1 .
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
again free independent media would have again played a positive role here. Six million Jews shouldnt have died before the west woke up.
Honestly the dying jews were the last thing on the allied forces minds. The allied forces did not enter into the war for the Jews.
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
On the contrary I think the rest of the world is and we are not.
So the democratic countries are the ones not playing by the rules? Which ones are?
I guess the islamic states, China, dictatorshipos etc are? This is exactly the thinking I was warning against. Just because you are reading stuff that shows how unfair US is being does not mean that the rest in the world are playing fair. That is exactly what I mean when I say self-introspection on one side lays all the blame on one side only. This is especially true if one reads only Noam Chomsky(and like) and hold his views to be the 'truth'. No one kind of media holds exclusive rights on 'truth'. There is a bit of it on both the right and the left.
Do you want to elaborate on the countries who are playing fair? Its really interesting to know which countries you think are playing fair or in ways that uphold justice peace etc.
Unless you are talking about Europe...dont kid yourself...Europe is with us when push comes to shove. They are as deep in this mess and are co-contributors.
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
Re "The House of Saud" How can you predict that oil prices wont fall if the house of Saud fell. I find it hard to believe Big oil and the House of Saud are actually looking out for us!!.
Did you read the link I provided.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200305/baer
here is an excerpt:
----------------------------------
In the decades after World War II the United States and the rest of the industrialized world developed a deep and irrevocable dependence on oil from Saudi Arabia, the world's largest and most important producer. But by the mid-1980s—with the Iran-Iraq war raging, and the opec oil embargo a recent and traumatic memory—the supply, which had until that embargo been taken for granted, suddenly seemed at risk. Disaster planners in and out of government began to ask uncomfortable questions. What points of the Saudi oil infrastructure were most vulnerable to terrorist attack? And by what means? What sorts of disruption to the flow of oil, short-term and long-term, could be expected? These were critical concerns. Underlying them all was the fear that a major attack on the Saudi system could cause the global economy to collapse.
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If you summerize his last few para's...it sounds just like.
"This process should have started decade ago if it wernt for us spending billions to $ to suck up the last bit of oil from someone elses backyard."
here it is:
------------------
Saudi Arabia today is a mess, and it is our mess. We made it the private storage tank for our oil reserves. We reaped the benefits of a steady petroleum supply at a discounted price, and we grabbed at every available Saudi petrodollar. We taught the Saudis exactly what was expected of them. We cannot walk away morally from the consequences of this behavior—and we really can't walk away economically.
------------------
Which I do not deny. I'm with you on 'how it should be', Or an 'ideal world'. The question is, are we ready to walk away from the economical consequences to each one of us from such an ideal world? Is the world going to be ideal if the democracies took leadership in playing fair? Or will the other countries take advantage and consider it a weakness? I'm guessing the latter than the former.
Ofcourse, if going back into a time-machine and changing things were an option...we could do it. However, since its not...now what?
p.s: Please do not forget to mention the countries that In your view are upholding social justice and peace in the world. US is definitely not in the running as both of us have concluded. Nor can Canada be(by its dependence on the US economy). Please mention the countries that you think are NOT working for self-interest. I'm waiting. Heck, I may even suggest we all move there.
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Quote:
...The propoganda only tapped into dormant german feeling of oppression/humiliation after ww1 ....
exactly my point
Quote:
\\\"....That is exactly what I mean when I say self-introspection on one side lays all the blame on one side only. This is especially true if one reads only Noam Chomsky(and like) and hold his views to be the 'truth'. No one kind of media holds exclusive rights on 'truth'. There is a bit of it on both the right and the left.....
I am not saying Noam = truth and CNN = lies. What I am saying is Naom does not stand to gain anything by supppressing any information while CNN does, in order to serve the greater good (if you know what I mean).
Secondly Naom dosnt stand to loose a dime putting out information as it is while Rupert's network does. All I am saying is media in what ever form corporate or independent must put out the facts as it is and let reader decide what to read and decide what is true and what is false. Fair enough?
Quote:
\\\".....Do you want to elaborate on the countries who are playing fair? Its really interesting to know which countries you think are playing fair or in ways that uphold justice peace etc....
In my opinion a country which does not meddle in another country's affairs for its own greed is good enough, that is good enough peace and justice for me, lets start there.
Quote:
\\\"...Unless you are talking about Europe...dont kid yourself...Europe is with us when push comes to shove. They are as deep in this mess and are co-contributors...\\\"
but you do understand where the push and shove is comming from, right? Fix that root cause and all should be well.
regarding the article: I dint read it but when I saw the heading I knew what it was all about. I thankyou for taking the effort to paste the highlights.
Quote:
\\\"But by the mid-1980s—with the Iran-Iraq war raging, and the opec oil embargo a recent and traumatic memory.....\\\"
I am sure you know whos proxy war this was?
Quote:
\\\"....Disaster planners in and out of government began to ask uncomfortable questions. What points of the Saudi oil infrastructure were most vulnerable to terrorist attack? And by what means? ....\\\"
yeah?!! what could be the reason for those terrorist attacks? Ah! I forgot its \\\"our way of life they hate\\\". This is what happens when we by pass other democracies and prop up dictators in order to fleece another nation's citizenry of its wealth.
Quote:
\\\".....p.s: Please do not forget to mention the countries that In your view are upholding social justice and peace in the world. US is definitely not in the running as both of us have concluded. Nor can Canada be(by its dependence on the US economy). Please mention the countries that you think are NOT working for self-interest. I'm waiting. Heck, I may even suggest we all move there.....\\\"
An active govt upholds social justice & peace
- its when you dont lie its citizenry into war against another govt to rob it of its resources
- its when you dont say you have no quarrel against another countries people but its govt and then turn around and starve it of basic medication for its children
- its when your troops dont barge thru the house of a family and snuff all of them out and deny it happened untill the facts are overwhelmingly obvious
- when a govt does not uphold selective justice and speeds up an execution so its collusion with the crimminal may not be uncovered
- when a govt does not shoot down another nations passenger jet and refuse to even apologize!!
- its when you say you do not condone torture and send a suspect to Syria knowing fully well its for that very purpose.
If you can make a list of active govts who are not into these thrills that is good enough.
- when you dont drop a million $ fireworks to wipe out a camel, its owner and his wife and children and call it collateral damage. Goodness!! 650,000 civilians so we can have our standard of living !! Can you sleep after that? Can you look at your child and justify that another man lost his today so you can have your fancy playstation for Christmass?!!
I understand your point that none of us are clean but without alternate views and thinking we tend to get ignorant and cant even start moving in the rightful direction. Its also just not right to say I want my standard of living hence I will take yours! You work for it and earn it rightfully. As much as we'ed like to pass on wealth to the next generation we should pass on right values and ideas not lies and justifications of more lies to cover the previous ones, only proper moral values can create a sustainable civilization else the so called civilizations we crete will all end the same way it started, with bloodshed.
\\\"There is enough in this world for every ones need but not for everyones greed\\\" - That was Ghandi's quote by the way. :-)
As far as Canada is concerned its just foolish policy to not understand that there is more to this globe than just south of the border. May not be as big consumer market wise but definitely safe enough to diversify. if not earlier then now would be a good time.
Hemzer and jake3d,
Although, it is interesting enough just to read posts by both of you but I couldn’t resist commenting. IMO, you two represent extremes of the views and a middle point would be close to ‘ideal world’ even better a practical world.
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
Secondly Naom dosnt stand to loose a dime putting out information as it is while Rupert's network does.
This is where I do not agree. Noam needs to eat too. He caters to a section of society that allows him to do so. Maybe his needs are smaller than that of CNN but they exist nevertheless
Quote:
In my opinion a country which does not meddle in another country's affairs for its own greed is good enough, that is good enough peace and justice for me, lets start there.
This country does not exist. I'd be happy if you would point one out.
Quote:
but you do understand where the push and shove is comming from, right? Fix that root cause and all should be well.
The Europeans were a root cause of social injustice. Infact they invented it
. Remember the colonies? Many of the social problems are a legacy of the colonial era.Quote:
An active govt upholds social justice & peace
-......
If you can make a list of active govts who are not into these thrills that is good enough.
Can you list them?
every govt indulges in activities like these. Super powers come under super scrutiny. If its not the US there WILL be another. The another may not even worry about frills like human rights...even if its to manipulate people.
If the US did not exist today, there will be other countries waiting to fill the vaccuum. Perhaps with worse 'collateral damage' when they take to the streets. You only need to see how the Russians(ironically, vocal against the collateral damage when someone else does it) took Grozny for an example.
Quote:
I understand your point that none of us are clean but without alternate views and thinking we tend to get ignorant and cant even start moving in the rightful direction. Its also just not right to say I want my standard of living hence I will take yours! You work for it and earn it rightfully. As much as we'ed like to pass on wealth to the next generation we should pass on right values and ideas not lies and justifications of more lies to cover the previous ones, only proper moral values can create a sustainable civilization else the so called civilizations we crete will all end the same way it started, with bloodshed.
\\\"There is enough in this world for every ones need but not for everyones greed\\\" - That was Ghandi's quote by the way. :-)
This is exactly my point. It not that the US is doing the right thing. Its that the US is doing what it does because we enable it with our counsumerism. Consumerism has become synonymous with 'prosperity' and the "american way of life'. Replicating this 'American way of life' is what fuels the dreams of even villagers in India and China. Each and every icon of 'progress and development' is modelled after the American systems....be it 'supermalls' or the 'super highways'.
Guess how India and China are going to behave then? There are already countless of examples of them mistreating/lying to their own citizens....forget the neighbours.
Anyway we will go in circles. Let me sum up the main thought I am trying to convey:
Saying that 'its not right' does not give one any moral leverage if one does not assume the responsibility of being a cog in the wheel that drives the whole engine. In glossing over ones own responsibility in the current state of affairs, one only emulates the very system one is criticising.
e.g:
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
I dont see anything wrong with Halliburton selling me what I need. What is wrong with that?
is like saying
"lets make war inorder to have lasting peace"
Cant have your cake and eat it too. Lets tell the politicians that we know its not about justice but about self-interests. Let us be clear when we vote too. Lets not allow politicians to say that their foreign policy is about 'peace'. Lets be educated enough to demand staight-talk. Thus it will be more easy for all of us to see how hypocritical we are being. Maybe that is one way of changing things, instead of taking a moral highorse and absolving ourselves from responsibility(ironically, matching the actions of those we criticize).
Let us confront our own hypocricy before we aim to change world politics.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
Hemzer and jake3d,
Although, it is interesting enough just to read posts by both of you but I couldn’t resist commenting. IMO, you two represent extremes of the views and a middle point would be close to ‘ideal world’ even better a practical world.
LOL. Ranin, I thought you were going to say that you are tired our ranting.
According to me, the world view that I have described is the one that is being practised. Thus, it is UNFORTUNATELY the practical world of today.
As to if its extreme is your call. I would like to point you to where you can find, what I consider, equivalents of Hemzers viewpoint....only on the opposite spectrum.
freerepublic.com (interestingly there are some desi members there who often associate Indias self-interests with neocon US agenda)
Similarly there are other 'independent media' like http://www.memri.org/
which seek to further their own agenda...again from the viewpoint opposite to that of hemzer.
What is common to these extreme viewpoints, of the left and right, is that they consider the US to be all important to human race and thus come to the conclussion that.
a) US is all that is good and just. If the US does not exist the world is doomed.
OR
b) US is all that is bad and evil. If the US is destroyed so will injustice.
I consider neither viewpoints to be true.
However if we imagine that America and its policies did not exist...anyone who is educated about the geopolitical landscape of the world will know that Russia, China or whatever other foreign interest will only rush in to compensate. There will still be injustices by superpower/s...perhaps worse than that propagated by a 'flawed' democracy like that of the US.
America is the devil we know. Wishing its downfall will only hurt us(and our economic interests) if we do not know what comes in its place. THAT is the gist of my argument.
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