Wonder why they hate us? Take a look.
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Posted on: 09-02-07 16:37:34
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No the fact that their strategy for containing the violence is NOT working. Thats all over CNN and
BBC. It was evident right from the start that any failure in Iraq would not go down well with the
electorate. Noone in their right minds would think that splittingup Iraq would be a sensible
strategy if the republicans had to control congress or win the next presidential election.
'Orchestrating' yada yada is your ignorant wet dream not mine.
Clever twist, we were talking about who was inciting and orchestrating but I guess you now want to
change the topic to about how we failed to "contain" the aftermath.
....but wasnt it that it was not ALL over CNN or BBC untill it was overwhelmingly out in the open
thru other media (you know the nutcase ones) and when they could no longer tout Iraq as a success
without looking foolish did they change their speak.
In your opinion you think the electorate gave Dems the charge because they were not happy with the Repubs strategy
to quell the violence, is it?
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Hey Art bell is credible to some...be my guest
Never knew who he was untill now. I am learning so much from you, atleast in bits and pieces in
between your brash rantings and name calling which has pretty much detoriated this thread in to blather.
Hey if Art Bell decided to report on a topic of my interest, I will surely read it. Whats wrong
with that?
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its done for OIL. It would have been over if the Americans were brutal enough. It would have been
an efficient (not 'moral') way to control the oil.
our immorality is what breeds hate towards us.
How can you bestow on people immorality and then expect them love us and hate some one else for it ?
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Now nothing can change that....oh i forgot....you have a 'plan'
Just to remind you...The plan was to apologize and negotiate in a civilized manner.
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I've mentioned oil,self-interest, economy. Democracy, in the middle east will make control over
the oil easier for the west. Are you dense?
Allow me to make a small modification here....
prefix "oil" with "their"
prefix "self-interest with "our"
prefix "economy" with "our"
replace "Democracy" with "propping up self serving puppet regimes"
It should read thus....
"....I've mentioned, their oil, our self-interest, our economy. propping up self serving puppet regimes,
in the middle east will make control over the oil easier for the west. Are you dense?....."
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Your conspiracy theories and sheer ignorance is bound to make me irate. Its like talking to a 15
yr old instead of a 40 yr old. People who have not taken the trouble of educating themselves
should not be engaging in debates and coming up with 'plans' based solely on ignorance.
Theres, nothing wrong with debating a 15 yr old is there?
People who get irate and brash should also not be engaging in debates,
it leads to a lot of blather and can turn it into uninteresting cheap talk devoid of any meaning.
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Be my guest. Like I said...its been proven so I dont see a need.
If you dont see a need then you shouldnt be harping on it so much...
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You are full of theories. Maybe thats why Sadr is angry.. a humvee bumped into his car.
I thought that hypothesis was simple enough to help you understand the human side of this carnage.
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Ahmadenajabby's crap is as much propaganda as the neocons. He is using religion to seek control
over the middle east. He is using the situation in Iraq and lebanon to push Irans self interest
and influence over the oil and the region.
I am glad we arnt.
If he is using the situation to his advantage then why create it in the first place.
In reality he is the winner of this war even without fighting it. No wonder he has a silly smirk
on his face most of the time while our pressy looks like he dosnt know what hit him!
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The neocons are using him. Its world politics.
This contradicts your previous statement. If he is using the situation we created to his advantage
I dont see how we are using him.
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That being said He IS racist. His supremacist islamic ideology IS intolerant and racist.
I confess this question is out of ignorance on my part.
What exactly is his crime? Why do you term him a racist?
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When racists talk about wiping out countries...you take note. If/When Pat Robertson heads the
armed forces of the US and talks about wiping out Iran...we similarly have to take note.
Why would Ahmadedejadeh (I wish we could get his name straight) do that?
If his intention was to kill Jews or any peoples of any nation I would not feel any sympathy for him if he
was lynched today....but why would he do that? What does he stand to gain?
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You got that from the 2006 link. Which also mentioned that the solution to the civil war is to
send more troops....which is what Bush is doing.
No, I read such links and use my common sense to infer the content I read (now please give me that minimum credit and do not
say that I dont have them, every one has them.... hence the term "common"
You have to wonder why with all the money and hardware we have, we cant keep a civil war down.
Something that Saddam could efectively keep down even under sanctions.
I wonder about that a lot, do you?...... or is it a fact that we do need that civil war in place.....or is this just my own deviant thought?
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Now which is it? Is bush orchestrating or trying to prevent civil war?
Take a guess.
If we do not ensure chaos one way or other, what reason would we give our electorate thru our credible CNN & BBC to stay
the course there anymore?
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If the west does not do this to impose its influence, the secondary powers like China and Russia
WILL step in.
Shouldnt our wars then be with Russia and China?
What have the ME people done to us? what is their crime against us?
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well they are not Hating us right now. They are hating each other.
I guess than we wont need that 10 feet thick walled fortified green zone anymore then..... which is surrounded by
mercenaries and hired iraqi guns.
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I am on the side of the west. You are not. You seem to be keen only on focussing and demonizing
the west.Why? What compells you to take that stance? Dont talk about morals again.
A beacon of hope, life, liberty and justice. These are great morals and values. I stand by them. Id love to
see this given to all mankind. (Including those Iraqis).
We live in the west.
In a neighbourhood you have to clean up your own home before you can point your fingers at your neighbours.
It is a very pro western value to stand up for these principles.
We are a super power we should have super high morals and values. Do you find this view of mine anti west?
You agree to immoral aggression for our gains. You say you are an intellectual debating a stupid here.. but taking sides with out introspection is quite an inanely
thought out act.
Which of these are western or are not western ideologies?
What exactly does being on the west's side mean to you ? Does it entitle you to drive like in that video clip?
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Originally posted by hemzer
Clever twist, we were talking about who was inciting and orchestrating but I guess you now want to
change the topic to about how we failed to "contain" the aftermath.
huh? The war was won. Containing the populace did not work out. 2 different issues.
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....but wasnt it that it was not ALL over CNN or BBC untill it was overwhelmingly out in the open
thru other media (you know the nutcase ones) and when they could no longer tout Iraq as a success
without looking foolish did they change their speak.
I dont think anyone ever said the Iraq strategy was going well...even when it was(against saddam). NOT cnn or bbc ,definitely. BTW: CNN and BBC are considered by the conservatives to be leftist propaganda machines.
I sure like to keep you well informed...dont I?
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In your opinion you think the electorate gave Dems the charge because they were not happy with the Repubs strategy
to quell the violence, is it?.
Yep the Iraq issue was the biggest factor.
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Hey if Art Bell decided to report on a topic of my interest, I will surely read it. Whats wrong
with that?
I think hes right up your alley http://www.fantasticforum.com/1res/forumdisplay.php?forumid=30
enjoy
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our immorality is what breeds hate towards us.
How can you bestow on people immorality and then expect them love us and hate some one else for it ?
we are talking politics...not about love and immorality.
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Just to remind you...The plan was to apologize and negotiate in a civilized manner.
There you go again. Saying it again and again does not make your 'plan; any better. Quote:
Allow me to make a small modification here....
prefix "oil" with "their"
prefix "self-interest with "our"
prefix "economy" with "our"
replace "Democracy" with "propping up self serving puppet regimes"
It should read thus....
"....I've mentioned, their oil, our self-interest, our economy. propping up self serving puppet regimes,
in the middle east will make control over the oil easier for the west. Are you dense?....."
That works too. BTW: thats the game plan tha Iran, Russia, China etc are banking on too. You really should inform yourself.
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Theres, nothing wrong with debating a 15 yr old is there?
People who get irate and brash should also not be engaging in debates,
it leads to a lot of blather and can turn it into uninteresting cheap talk devoid of any meaning.
Theres that OR you could focus on the fact that you are actually becoming informed on the topic...even though I'm force feeding you
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If he is using the situation to his advantage then why create it in the first place.
He plays politics its our fault...we play politics its still our fault. This is what I meant when I said...you are helping Ahmajibby.
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In reality he is the winner of this war even without fighting it. No wonder he has a silly smirk
on his face most of the time while our pressy looks like he dosnt know what hit him!
I agree with you . The guy(Bush) does not have the finesse to pull it off. He does have the balls though. All balls and no finesse makes jack a dull boy
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This contradicts your previous statement. If he is using the situation we created to his advantage
I dont see how we are using him.
'we'? The neocons are using his missteps to build their case against him. Iran is probably next in US crosshairs. No contradiction. Remember?control of oil? Use Amajabas rhetoric against him etc etc.
In the same vein Ammyjibby...want control of oil in ME...use hate for israel to galvanize muslim support.
Same game...different styles.
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I confess this question is out of ignorance on my part.
What exactly is his crime? Why do you term him a racist?
I do like to help you:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/
Its not the only time...but I'll leave you to google.
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Why would Ahmadedejadeh (I wish we could get his name straight) do that?
He is playing to the Muslim street. The demonization of jews is a fact for islamic cultures. Israels defensive and/or offensive ploys have only served to confirm their demonic status. Needless to say any Control over the muslim street only helps in his efforts to extend irans influence in the region. Especially by marginalizing the Sunni Arabs. All this is not going down well with the Sunnis power centers.
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If his intention was to kill Jews or any peoples of any nation I would not feel any sympathy for him if he
was lynched today....but why would he do that?
I'm not much for lynching...but shit happens
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What does he stand to gain?
read above. Actually I know you dont believe me...but here is a pro islamic blogger who paints a pretty accurate picture as far as the regional power play is involved. He does share your affinity for the 'orchestrating wet dream'. Surprise !!!
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/12/18/saudi-vs-iran/
The Sunnis powers covertly support US/Israel plan against Irans increasing influence.
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No, I read such links and use my common sense to infer the content I read (now please give me that minimum credit and do not
say that I dont have them, every one has them.... hence the term "common"
Heres what I do. I read eveything...from the right from the left and everywhere. THEN i use my common sense. I think the term' common' is muiused. If I read only the right wing crap I would be arguing that Bush and Cheney are decended from Christ and are defending everything that is good and true for the future of human goodness and greatness. If I read only left wong crap if would similarly been arguing...well...pretty much like you do...only I would make an effort to be better informed.
. I hope your 'common sense' can 'infer' that both the sides love to wax eloquent on morals, freedom, liberty, light houses and beacons .Quote:
You have to wonder why with all the money and hardware we have, we cant keep a civil war down.
Something that Saddam could efectively keep down even under sanctions.
I wonder about that a lot, do you?...... or is it a fact that we do need that civil war in place.....or is this just my own deviant thought?
Could it be that Saddam was brutal in his methods...be it gassing or mass murder. Could it be that he did not have to worry about 'morals' or 'public opinion' in the west. You dont even want the soldiers to drive defensively let alone use Saddams tactics. Comeon...you want me to give you some minimum credit for common sense and then you make statements like above.
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Shouldnt our wars then be with Russia and China?
Its not in the open because no body can afford that war. Why do you think Russia and China are supporting Iran?
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jid/jid051027_1_n.shtml
A hint: Its not morals that is the driving force....but control over resources to check the US influence.
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What have the ME people done to us? what is their crime against us?
They are the weakest link. They are divided amongst themselves....THAT is the problem. That is the reason that they will never be in control over their own resources.
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I guess than we wont need that 10 feet thick walled fortified green zone anymore then..... which is surrounded by
mercenaries and hired iraqi guns.
Well if they cannot get to the real problem its not an excuse for them to go killing their own people is it? Do they go ''OOHH I hate them yankees, Cannot get to them. I know...let me kill some Iraqi civilians''? Maybe it makes sense to you but not to me.
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A beacon of hope, life, liberty and justice. These are great morals and values. I stand by them. Id love to
see this given to all mankind. (Including those Iraqis).
AWWW! Sniff!! There's that 'beacon'
. What about 'lighthouse' or the 'white knight' or 'glowing fountain' or the 'protectors of democracy'. Dont overestimate your abilities. You cannot 'give' that to anyone. They have to want it. If they were united and they wanted whatever you feel magnanimous enough to give them there would be no Saddam in the first place. You do have reading to do on the subject...believe me. You cannot depend on me to help you with everything
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We are a super power we should have super high morals and values.
Super high morals and values do not make Superpowers. Wherever did you get that Idea? In that case Dalai Lama would not be living in exile.
As a matter of fact the US would not be a superpower and we would not be in the west. We'd prolly be in Communist Russia, China or Hitlers Germany right now. Now you'll make me explain that because you obviously will not 'get' it. Oh well, back to your crutch(morals).
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You agree to immoral aggression for our gains. You say you are an intellectual debating a stupid here.. but taking sides with out introspection is quite an inanely thought out act.
Superpowers are built at the expense of morals. Morals and world politics do not mix. You keep confusing the two...and thus feed your ignorance and delusions
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What exactly does being on the west's side mean to you ? Does it entitle you to drive like in that video clip?
If you understand from any of the links that morals drive world politics. I will not argue with you.
I leave it to you to educate yourself to find out if alliances/friendships amongst countries or war between countries are based on morals OR are they based on economic interests. The fact is morals are an expendeble commodity for ANY country that seeks power, influence or economic self-interest. ALL countries seek the same. So if you are demonizing the west for a fault that is common to everyone else...it infers that you would like the west to fail in the game.
Or in words which you would use.
You would like the west to be morally rich but economically bankrupt. I dont see that as being pro-west if the economic wellbeing of the west is important to me. Your comment?
p.s: please read the links ive provided ...its good for ya.
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BTW: CNN and BBC are considered by the conservatives to be leftist propaganda machines.
What do you think?
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Theres that OR you could focus on the fact that you are actually becoming informed on the
topic...even though I'm force feeding you
Thanks, what would I do with out you.
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I agree with you . The guy(Bush) does not have the finesse to pull it off. He does have the balls
though. All balls and no finesse makes jack a dull boy
........ also rolling it around carelessly in someone elses backyard.....he is bound to crack it for ya....... thats exactly what happening in Iraq.
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I do like to help you:
Are you sure CNN is not pampering to the politics of it all.
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Could it be that Saddam was brutal in his methods...be it gassing or mass murder. Could it be that
he did not have to worry about 'morals' or 'public opinion' in the west. You dont even want the
soldiers to drive defensively let alone use Saddams tactics. Comeon...you want me to give you some
minimum credit for common sense and then you make statements like above.
Could it be he was doing it under our supervision?
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They are the weakest link. They are divided amongst themselves....THAT is the problem. That is the
reason that they will never be in control over their own resources.
Is that a crime?
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So if you are demonizing the west for a fault that is common to everyone else...it infers that you would like the west to fail in the game.
Wrong, we have been thru this before.... consider the relationship the US has to Iraq and Russia/China to Iran.
Both are not magnanimous like you mentioned.....but you did get my point the last time dint you?
The bottom line I am getting from all your posts is that............. When one needs anothers resources its ok to steal it as long as you can justify it
with a pre conceived notion that someone else will steal it if you do not do it first.
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Well if they cannot get to the real problem its not an excuse for them to go killing their own
people is it?
BTW, what is the "real problem"?
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Originally posted by hemzer
The bottom line I am getting from all your posts is that............. When one needs anothers resources its ok to steal it as long as you can justify it
Wow, you do get that? Do you also get that I say that every country in the world is involved in such behaviour? Or all that you hear is how evil the west is?
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with a pre conceived notion that someone else will steal it if you do not do it first.
Its not a preconceived notion. Its an observation based on how world politics is conducted. The observation is not based on what I 'THINK' world politics is based on, but rather on what actually transpires based on historical and current events.
Its not an observation based on what I wish it were based on either. Thats your angle.
I've provided enough links to back up my observations. You may or may not have read them. You certainly have not been able to disprove it. Anyway, now Its your turn to prove that world politics is conducted on the basis of morals and justice. Some links to back that up please. Pick your favourite 'moral' and 'just' country to provide us with examples of how worldpolitics is actually conducted morally and justly by that country.
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Wow, you do get that? Do you also get that I say that every country in the world is involved in such behaviour? Or all that you hear is how evil the west is? .
We went over this before....(Talk about repeating)....
Name me a country that is currently attacking Iran for its resources?
Dont you think we have to clean up our own backyard before we point fingers at others.
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Its not a preconceived notion. Its an observation based on how world politics is conducted. The observation is not based on what I 'THINK' world politics is based on, but rather on what actually transpires based on historical and current events.
Its not an observation based on what I wish it were based on either. Thats your angle.
I've provided enough links to back up my observations. You may or may not have read them. You certainly have not been able to disprove it.
Its not what you think I am worried about.
Its you trying to justify against a simple fact that you cannot oppress another peoples and not be hated for it.
Historically we have had crimminals all over our cities, towns, neighbourhoods etc what exactly stops you from becomming one of them?
According to you I should be taking out my knives and guns and killing my neighbours and stealing from them at will and the reason I should state is that \"the towns plagued with crimminals and if I dont do it another one will\". This is also supposed to be a good thing for the victim.
What are you proposing? jungle law? then we cant call ourselves civilized.
Arnt we humans capable of evolving to build better societies (considering that intellectual thinkers like you exist are in our midst) . You fail to impress me here.
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Originally posted by hemzer
Name me a country that is currently attacking Iran for its resources?
I dont know. Its not been attacked yet
. Since you bring up Iran...Iran is fully complicit in lebanon and has a lot to do with the current state of the lebanese. Likewise it is also involved in Iraq doing pretty much the same thing. The Iranians have a lot of blood on their hands in the ongoing civil war in Iraq. So yes they(Iran) are attacking Iraq and its people for their resources and regional influence. They are supported by Russia and China so as to weaken the US advantage in the region. Can you disprove this?
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Its not what you think I am worried about.
Its you trying to justify against a simple fact that you cannot oppress another peoples and not be hated for it.
Iran is hated in Iraq too. Iran is similarly hated in a large part of Lebanon. Iran is hated in Saudi and Egypt too. I agree that the Iranians are only doing what the rest of the world does...i.e: serve their own interests at the cost of someone else. Darwin has already described this behaviour.
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What are you proposing? jungle law? then we cant call ourselves civilized.
Arnt we humans capable of evolving to build better societies (considering that intellectual thinkers like you exist are in our midst) . You fail to impress me here.
Its actually called Survival of the fittest. I dont think any of us are civilized so long as we act in this way. Definitely not you who depend on oil much as the next republican redneck. Not me either. The difference between us is that I know I am part of the problem(by my living in a cheap-oil dependent society). You are the one who is on a moral soabbox chosing to ignore your own complicity. Its a pretentious stand at best.
Talk is cheap. Lets see you live without cheap oil before you start preaching morality. The oil is kept cheap for you and me only by dirty world politics. Even if we are ready to pay 5$ a litre...I dont think many of our 'civilized' countrymen are ready for the same. Even on this board you could see concern when oil climbed to its post-Katrina highs. A lack of US influence in the region WILL raise the price of oil we pay at the pump and all our commodities.
I did not make up the rules, about the survival of the fittest in world politics, I'm only making observations. I'm not aiming to impress you either
. Can you prove that world politics is not based on the survival of the fittest? Failing this it seems that you are trying to impose a set of standards on the west that nobody else adheres to. Is there a reason for that?
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