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Posted on: 28-02-07 22:42:51
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
Even if that the majority are happy to be out of Saddams grip.
They (the various factions as you like to call them) are not going to give us a free pass into
pilliaging their resources?
Nobodys pillaging anything. Everybodys positioning themselves to ensure uninterrupted supply of oil. The Iraqi govt(voted in by the Iraqi people) is the faction one should be backing. Thats what the US is doing.
Quote:
None of the factions will allow it, whether we side them or not.....isnt it clearly evident by the
recent attempt on the green zone while our VP was there.
The VP was in Afghanistan
. Different country.You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Or did you take the liberty of establishing a 'green zone' near the Bagram airbase in Afghanistan?
OR did you get the info from the famous 'clearing house' 
Quote:
Arming Iran is not the same as attacking Iran into submission for its resources.
One act causes them happiness the other hate towards the perpetuator.
Causing them happiness!!
You know that Iran is backing(militarily and financially) the Shia death squads and the Shia radicals against the sunni ? I think you dont. You are mixed up about Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place.
. Iran is Russia and Chinas proxy in Iraq. People are dying in Iraq due to Iran. Ask the Sunnis in iraq if you are in doubt. Maybe they should call the death squads the 'happiness squads'.Quote:
At one point you say Russia cannot flex its muscle beyond its borders and now you say it can control oil price.
Its rocket science isnt it?
. See above.Quote:
Do you know what that means? Controllng oil in todays world? very contrdicting statements.
So said the person who does not know the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan
Quote:
The instability we have caused is being sensibly neutralized by these nations to a small extent.
I guess they are up there on the 'morality' scale arent they
? With all the proxies and the 'happiness squads' they are obviously 'moral models' for everyone else to emulate. Are you serious?Quote:
So you dont have an answer to this, do you?
.......etc etc..
World politics is financed by us the common man via our taxes, govts are our representation, and politics
affects one and all in their daily lives.
Its basic principles cannot be far off from simplicity unless one is delusional and
indifferent towards educating oneself.
Simplicity cannot apply to world politics since everybody is playing for self interest NOT to be morally right. 'Moral rightness' is what you are talking about...which unfortunately does not drive world politics. You were talking about delusions
. Maybe its all the 'morality' you see out of Russia and Chinas actions.Quote:
survival of the fittest ...is a predatory tactic... an uncivilized, ruthless jungle law (currently
practiced by us and wild animals) its not world politics.
I did not ask for your opinion on it...I asked you to prove that world politics was NOT based on the survival of the fittest. Can you?
Quote:
Explain, why should we be taking sides then?
We've been through this read the rest of the thread. We are backing the democratically elected Iraqi govt. We are against all factions.
Quote:
Define that for me?
That foreign policy is conducted on the basis of self interest of the country. Not on morality.
Be it India or the US. e.g: majority of Kashmiris want to be separate from both India and Pakistan. Why will Pakistan not allow that? India cannot allow that either...even more so than Pakistan. Can SriLanka allow Tamils to set up a separate homeland inspite of the tamils wanting the same? Try opening a post saying 'why they hate us' about the Indian army in Kashmir and you will really get roasted.
Why are India and Pakistan or India and China wary neighbours at best? If world politics was about morals there would be no wars or need for armies either.
Again...Can you prove me wrong?
Quote:
How does this "killing" you mention above equate to destroying the oil supply that the west covet.
We just have to let them know its only us, your saviours, whom you dont hate thats taking the oil.
I thought you said they dont hate us. We should be able to pick up that barrel of oil at no cost
then, isnt it? Hmmmmm does somebody hate us then, I am beginning to think so?
You are 'beginning'?
. Your OP is built on that flimsy premise which you have been trying to prove with total disregard to and undisguised ignorance of the political reality . As if that wasnt bad enough you also go ahead and put your feet further down your throat by your ignorance of geography too.To answer your question about the US need for stability in Iraq: The civil war makes it difficult to get the oil from there to here over time. Its not as simple as seeingthe oil, grabbing it and coming back. It has to pumped out over time and shipped. If there is chaos in Iraq the US cannot get an uninterrupted supply of oil. The civil war disturbs the infrastructure, the manpower, the political will and thus the stability that is required to ensure the supply of oil to the west. Why am I explaining basic stuff to you.
Read the rest of the thread. Theres enough there for you to be able to wrap your head around before you try to debate.
Also read up on geography. Afghanistan is next to Pakistan. Theres a whole country called Iran in between and then comes Iraq
. Cheney was in Afghanistan recently. There is no 'green zone' in Afghanistan .AAAAANNNND,
all this time i've been playing along with you by saying 'us' to mean the west. However, your reference to 'our VP' is taking things a bit too far. Maybe its a good time, and I hate to break this to you, but the US and Canada are different countries. Just like Afghanistan and Iraq are different countries. US soldiers are in both countries...but Canadians are only in Afghanistan. Cheney is definitely not 'our VP'.
Class dismissed
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Quote:
Nobodys pillaging anything. Everybodys positioning themselves to ensure uninterrupted supply of
oil. The Iraqi govt(voted in by the Iraqi people) is the faction one should be backing. Thats what
the US is doing.
our rethoric...."We are not there for the oil"...... and then we make a back door effort to get
them to sign unfair oil deals......?
FYI : This is pillaging, big time.
Guess what would happen to Malliki if he dint play along, you guessed it, he will be replaced over
night by the US for another puppet.
So this isnt pillaging to you?
Quote:
The VP was in Afghanistan . Different country
My oversight here.......but interesting how you kept picking and harping on my oversight to make
your point.
In reality, you know there have been attempts at the green zone specially when the so called VIP's have
visited there. So your correction here is humbly accepted......but unfortunately for you my point still holds.
What this proves is we are hated not only in Iraq but all over the islamic region.
Atleast in your own words we now have 2 groups (al qaeda & Afgan people) who hate us. Nice to see
you picking up on things around here.
Quote:
You know that Iran is backing(militarily and financially) the Shia death squads and the Shia
radicals against the sunni ?............
I think you dont. You are mixed up about Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place. . Iran is
Russia and Chinas proxy in Iraq.
Since when?
Quote:
Quote:
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Do you know what that means? Controllng oil in todays world? very contrdicting statements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So said the person who does not know the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan
..I am missing your "Constructive" point here....
Quote:
I guess they are up there on the 'morality' scale arent they ? With all the proxies and the
'happiness squads' they are obviously 'moral models' for everyone else to emulate. Are you
serious?
here too.....
Get this, I am saying, they are only defending themselves from an idiot running roughshod in their
neighbourhood.
Quote:
Simplicity cannot apply to world politics since everybody is playing for self interest NOT to be
morally right.
"Self interest" is not an excuse for thievery.
Simplicity and straightforwardness does bring out sanity anywhere, world politics or not.
World politics are not conducted by some supernatural gods that we have no control over.
They are just elected men with agendas some good, some bad and our tax money.
If you prefer to be delusional you wont be able to reason anything out fairly.
Quote:
Quote:
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survival of the fittest ...is a predatory tactic... an uncivilized, ruthless jungle law (currently
practiced by us and wild animals) its not world politics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did not ask for your opinion on it...I asked you to prove that world politics was NOT based on
the survival of the fittest. Can you?
If you can give me geography lessons I guess I am entitled to give you some moral science tips.
Quote:
We are backing the democratically elected Iraqi govt. We are against all factions.
Can you ever have a democratically elected govt under occupation? Is this your understanding of world politics? Ill leave it at that...
Quote:
Quote:
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Define that for me?
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That foreign policy is conducted on the basis of self interest of the country. Not on morality.
Be it India or the US. e.g: majority of Kashmiris want to be separate from both India and
Pakistan. Why will Pakistan not allow that? India cannot allow that either...even more so than
Pakistan. Can SriLanka allow Tamils to set up a separate homeland inspite of the tamils wanting
the same? Try opening a post saying 'why they hate us' about the Indian army in Kashmir and you
will really get roasted.
Why are India and Pakistan or India and China wary neighbours at best? If world politics was about
morals there would be no wars or need for armies either.
Again...Can you prove me wrong?
Yes I completely agree "foreign policy is conducted on the basis of self interest" but not on the
basis of "survival of the fittest" like you mentioned before.
.... I feel you are just blabbering here to deviate from topic.
Let me repost (below) and give you the opportunity to pick the definition of "fittest" in your
phrase "survival of the fittest" and I will prove you wrong.
Repost :
.....................I do not know what your context is here, Fittest in what way? military?
manpower? wealth? health?
resources? market share? consumerism? intelligence index? educated mass? infrastructure?
geography?
The term "survival of the fittest" can also be used when two high school kids quiz for a
prize...
or when two chef's cook it out on food network........ so to use such a broad meaning term in
world
politics is fair depending on the context ......but to use it to justify the carnage, pillaging
and
killing we have laid upon the ME people and call it thus is chillingly cold and socially deviant
at the least.......
Quote:
Try opening a post saying 'why they hate us' about the Indian army in Kashmir and you will really
get roasted.
When the Indian govt decides to attack another country which has caused us no harm solely based on your
theory of "survival of the fittest" and "preemptive wars of aggression, destroying cities and
massacring women & children for no real reason but to rob another country for its oil or resources
all the while stating lies and deception to its citizenry and to the world.... then I will surely
open another thread as you mention...
When our leaders make us look like cruel & wicked fools in the world theatre .. Yes. I will.
........and I defy any one here who can roast me for that Stand. (I have a feeling they will stand
with me on that, including you)
Quote:
To answer your question about the US need for stability in Iraq: The civil war makes it difficult
to get the oil from there to here over time.
The right thing then was just to have let Saddam rule Iraq and cut a fair deal with him just like old
friends do? ..........Except that would have been a fair deal? .........but we got greedy and
decided to show Saddam how our new "survival of the fittest" theory worked.
If we knew sectarian violence will erupt when we bring Saddam down then we are responsible for
causing it.
If we dint know sectarian violence will erupt when we bring Saddam down then our foolishness and
ignorance is responsible for causing it.
Either way you look at it we deliberately contributed to the instability of Iraq leading to
sectarian violence ....... and we blame Iran, China and Russia for it?
Quote:
AAAAANNNND,
all this time i've been playing along with you by saying 'us' to mean the west. However, your
reference to 'our VP' is taking things a bit too far. Maybe its a good time, and I hate to break
this to you, but the US and Canada are different countries. Just like Afghanistan and Iraq are
different countries. US soldiers are in both countries...but Canadians are only in Afghanistan.
Cheney is definitely not 'our VP'.
OK.
Kind of a moot point here.
Since we, all the while represented the term "west" to mean Canada & the US.....but your point is
taken.
Here are some excerpts for you....... straight from a soldier, you cant tell me you know better than him about whats happening on the ground.
.. if you plan on calling him a nutcase, If suggest you send him a note and ask for yourself if he is one.
His id is at the bottom.
Most of all, Note the treatment and hate he identifies from the Iraqis.... exactly what this thread was all about.
So your take about this being a propoganda falls flat on its face right here...
Soldier's quote :
..... I had already come to the conclusion that the reason wasn't to establish democracy.
My unit in Iraq fired shots at drivers that wouldn't get out of our way, ran vehicles off the road, conducted
cordon and searches looking for "military-age men" who could maybe be guilty of something.....
.....Just a note, I like to tell soldiers to put themselves in the average Iraqi's place. What would we, as
Americans, do if our police engaged in any of these activities against us? Would we take pot shots
and set traps and, in effect, become "insurgents" too? if we were to be occupied, would we react any differently? ...
.....I was dismayed at the way the Iraqis were treated. How can we, the United States, insist
on leading the free world when we volunteer so easily to give up the moral high ground?
It's the cycle of violence. We get shot at, so we shoot anything and everything, thus creating
more people with a vendetta against us and who, in turn, shoot at us giving us a reason to shoot
everything all over again. We can repeat this cycle until either 1, everyone is dead or 2, we wise
up and realize that we're not entirely without guilt and end the cycle.
Now, this may entirely just be my own experience, but the pro-Iraq-War people I meet seem to fall
into two major categories, 1, those who think that all Iraqis are automatically guilty for 9/11 or
2, those who think all Muslims are guilty for 9/11. .......... Actually, both of those categories can be lumped into one "kill them all" category.
When I first got to Iraq, I felt that the quickest way to end the war was to do just that. Kill them all.
Remember, the Iraq War was my reason for going back on active duty. I bought into the fear, the
hype, and the propaganda hook, line and sinker.
I'm not going to waste any more time on those arguments. Anyone who speaks in absolutes like that
is completely self-deluded. I'm only going to say that the war was described as a "crusade" ever
so briefly in the very beginning and that the "kill them all" mentality is called genocide when
other countries do it.
Finally, I know we weren't there for the oil. Our government told us so......
- Ronn Cantu
Branch of service: United States Army (USA)
Home: Los Angeles, California
Served in: Egypt Jan - Jul '99. Iraq Feb '04 - Feb '05, Dec '06 - ?
shocked.awed@gmail.com
Quote:
Originally posted by hemzer
Guess what would happen to Malliki if he dint play along, you guessed it, he will be replaced over
night by the US for another puppet.
So this isnt pillaging to you?
The choices are/were Saddam, our puppet...if you choose to call him that, and Irans puppet. the Iraqis lose any way.
Quote:
What this proves is we are hated not only in Iraq but all over the islamic region.
It proves squat
Quote:
Atleast in your own words we now have 2 groups (al qaeda & Afgan people) who hate us.
Nope. Wrong again...but we've been thru this before
Quote:
Since when?
Iran is the thological base for many of the Iraqi Shia clerics. The mahdi armi is functional because of Iran. Russia has been using Iran as a proxy in the areaeven before the war. Read up.
Quote:
Get this, I am saying, they are only defending themselves from an idiot running roughshod in their
neighbourhood.
well, you've got it wrong. Nobodys perfect
. I'm curious to know how killing civilians are a measure of defending ones-self. You do know that the death squads rarely take on the US army...but prefer civilian targets. Check the bodycount of civilians vs us army personnel if in doubt.Quote:
If you can give me geography lessons I guess I am entitled to give you some moral science tips.
Ok so thats what this is all about...improving my moral standing
. I think ofImproving your geography as a bit more tangible and measurable Quote:
Can you ever have a democratically elected govt under occupation? Is this your understanding of world politics? Ill leave it at that...
Japan(post ww2) comes to mind
Quote:
Yes I completely agree "foreign policy is conducted on the basis of self interest" but not on the
basis of "survival of the fittest" like you mentioned before.
.................
Repost :
.....................I do not know what your context is here, Fittest in what way? military?
manpower? wealth? health?
resources? market share? consumerism? intelligence index? educated mass? infrastructure?
geography?
It is to ensure that your country has all of the above even if its at the expense of others. Thats how it is currently conducted. Be it India, China, Russia or any other country.
Quote:
When the Indian govt decides to attack another country which has caused us no harm solely based on your
theory of "survival of the fittest" and "preemptive wars of aggression, destroying cities and
massacring women & children for no real reason but to rob another country for its oil or resources
all the while stating lies and deception to its citizenry and to the world.... then I will surely
open another thread as you mention...
I'll post you some links that puts India right there. here..you dont find this on CNN either
. Yep, they are calling it an occupation too. http://www.islamawareness.net/Persecution/Kashmir/illegal.html
http://kashmir.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/the-largest-daemon-cracy/
other vids here
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1166172407554220338
http://www.geocities.com/mahazislami/link.htm
Will you open up that thread? Or are you going to say that these folks are misguided. Hey, they are with you on Iraq and Afghanistan. Probably you guys share views on kashmir too. They do mention 'hate'.
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Either way you look at it we deliberately contributed to the instability of Iraq leading to
sectarian violence ....... and we blame Iran, China and Russia for it?
They are factors in the instability...but they are playing for their own self interest by using Iraqis as pawns too. So no I'm not blaming them... its survival of the fittest
. You are the one playing the blame game.Quote:
Here are some excerpts for you....... straight from a soldier, you cant tell me you know better than him about whats happening on the ground.
Please...you see letters like this from all sides. Anyway...you will agree that I do not fit into the stereotype pro-war guys the chap talks about. I havent met anyone pro-war who says its about the oil. I'm not pro-war...but I dont think you'll understand so feel free to think what you *must*
.BTW: let me know if you want to see 'personal' pro-west accounts of soldiers who are in the thick of battle both in Afghanistan and Iraq. Will you give them the same credibility as this guy? I dont think so. Anyway here is one...i really dont agree with him about what the war is about just like I dont agree with your soldier for his reasons for oppossing it. I'll leave you to figure out what that all means...and find a way to improve my morality based on it
.Mom,
Be my voice. I want this message heard. It is mine and my platoon’s to the country. A man I know lost his legs the other night. He is in another company in our batallion. I can no longer be silent after watching the sacrifices made by Iraqis and Americans everyday.Send it to a congressman if you have to. Send it to FOX news if you have to. Let this message be heard please…
My fellow Americans, I have a task for those with the courage and fortitude to take it. I have a message that needs not fall on deaf ears. A vision the blind need to see. I am not a political man nor one with great wisdom. I am just a soldier who finds himself helping rebuild a country that he helped liberate a couple years ago.
I have watched on television how the American public questions why their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters are fighting and dying in a country 9000 miles away from their own soil. Take the word of a soldier, for that is all I am, that our cause is a noble one. The reason we are here is one worth fighting for. A cause that has been the most costly and sought after cause in our small span of existence on our little planet. Bought in blood and paid for by those brave enough to give the ultimate sacrifice to obtain it. A right that is given to every man, woman, and child I believe by God. I am talking of freedom.
Freedom. One word but yet countless words could never capture it’s true meaning or power. “For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know.” I read that once and it couldn’t be more true. It’s not the average American’s fault that he or she is “blind and deaf” to the taste of freedom. Most American’s are born into their God given right so it is all they ever know. I was once one of them. I would even dare to say that it isn’t surprising that they take for granted what they have had all their life. My experiences in the military however opened my eyes to the truth.
Ironically you will find the biggest outcries of opposition to our cause from those who have had no military experience and haven’t had to fight for freedom. I challenge all of those who are daring enough to question such a noble cause to come here for just a month and see it first hand. I have a feeling that many voices would be silenced.
I watched Cindy Sheehan sit on the President’s lawn and say that America isn’t worth dying for. Later she corrected herself and said Iraq isn’t worth dying for. She badmouthed all that her son had fought and died for. I bet he is rolling over in his grave.
Ladies and gentleman I ask you this. What if you lived in a country that wasn’t free? What if someone told you when you could have heat, electricity, and water? What if you had no sewage systems so human waste flowed into the streets? What if someone would kill you for bad-mouthing your government? What if you weren’t allowed to watch TV, connect to the internet, or have cell phones unless under extreme censorship? What if you couldn’t put shoes on your child’s feet?
You need not to have a great understanding of the world but rather common sense to realize that it is our duty as HUMAN BEINGS to free the oppressed. If you lived that way would you not want someone to help you????
The Iraqi’s pour into the streets to wave at us and when we liberated the cities during the war they gathered in the thousands to cheer, hug and kiss us. It was what the soldier’s in WW2 experienced, yet no one questioned their cause!! Saddam was no better than Hitler! He tortured and killed thousands of innocent people. We are heroes over here, yet American’s badmouth our President for having us here.
Every police station here has a dozen or more memorials for officers that were murdered trying to ensure that their people live free. These are husbands, fathers, and sons killed every day. What if it were your country? What would your choice be? Everything we fight for is worth the blood that may be shed. The media never reports the true HEROISM I witness everyday in the Iraqi’s. Yes there are bad one’s here, but I assure you they are a minuscule percent. Yet they are a number big enough to cause worry in this country’s future.
I have watched brave souls give their all and lose thier lives and limbs for this cause. I will no longer stand silent and let the “deaf and blind” be the only voice shouting. Stonewall Jackson once said, “All that I have, all that I am is at the service of the country.” For these brave souls who gave the ultimate sacrifice, including your son Cindy Sheehan, I will shout till I can no longer. These men and women are heroes. Their spirit lives on in their military and they will never be forgotten. They did not die in vain but rather for a cause that is larger than all of us.
My fellow countrymen and women, we are not overseas for our country alone but also another. We are here to spread democracy and freedom to those who KNOW the true taste of it because they fight for it everyday. You can see the desire in their eyes and I am honored to fight alongside them as an Infantryman in the 101st Airborne.
Freedom is not free, but yet it is everyone’s right to have. Ironic isn’t it? That is why we are here. Though you will always have the skeptics, I know that most of our military will agree with this message. Please, at the request of this soldier spread this message to all you know. We are in Operation Iraqi Freedom and that is our goal. It is a cause that I and thousands of others stand ready to pay the ultimate sacrifice for because, Cindy Sheehan, freedom is worth dying for, no matter what country it is! And after the world is free only then can we hope to have peace.
SGT Walter J. Rausch and 1st Platoon
101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)
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Hemzer,
I think your friend Ron Cantu is flipflopping on his accounts as per an interview given in Jan 2007
----------------
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/11/1536236#transcript
excerpt:
AMY GOODMAN: We go first to Iraq. My next guest, Sergeant Ronn Cantu, is an Army sergeant serving his second tour of duty in Iraq right now. He recently signed a petition to Congress, known as an Appeal for Redress, calling for the withdrawal of US troops. The appeal will be delivered to Capitol Hill next week. Sergeant Cantu is a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War. He started the website forum, soldiervoices.net, to give soldiers a forum to speak about the Iraq war, now joining us on the line from Iraq. It is very brave of you to join us, Sergeant Cantu.
SGT. RONN CANTU: Yeah, but I’m scared out of my mind right now. [inaudible] over here.
AMY GOODMAN: Why are you scared?
SGT. RONN CANTU: I don’t really want to go into that. All I really want to say, because I shouldn’t be doing this -- all I want to say is, right now American soldiers are dying in a Sunni-Shiite civil war, a sectarian civil war -- that’s a fact, based on my personal observations. Soldiers’ hands are tied to defend themselves. Every time a soldier fires his weapon, he has to sign paperwork making sure it was justified. I want to stress that soldiers want to go on the offensive, but everything we’re doing here is on the defense. And it’s a belief of the soldiers I’ve talked to that any troop increase over here, it’s just going to be more sitting ducks, more targets.
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I dont know if its me but his account is getting closer to my viewpoint than yours. Doesnt seem to be talking about the masacaring, raping etc...if anything hes complaining that they cannot go on the offensive. Quick send him some links from the famous clearing house
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The choices are/were Saddam, our puppet...if you choose to call him that, and Irans puppet. the
Iraqis lose any way.
Finally, I agree here with you.... Iraqis lose....from the pillaging by the west.
Why Irans puppet? You think Iraqis cannot have their own identity?
Iran and Iraq are neighbours and of course they will influence eachother in many ways then one.
Who gave us the right to judge that?
Is somebody from another town going to decide on what color you and your neighbour should paint that fence?
Quote:
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What this proves is we are hated not only in Iraq but all over the islamic region.
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It proves squat
Quote:
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Atleast in your own words we now have 2 groups (al qaeda & Afgan people) who hate us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. Wrong again...but we've been thru this before
Why wrong? You agreed alqaeda has a reason to hate us and then we get bombed by Afganis.
So you think the reason they do that is because they like us over there?
They are def hating our presence there.
We have to go thru this again because it is the very essence of this thread which you are
disputing.
Quote:
Iran is the thological base for many of the Iraqi Shia clerics. The mahdi armi is functional
because of Iran. Russia has been using Iran as a proxy in the areaeven before the war. Read up.
proxy for what? Who were they masaccaring and pillaging?
Quote:
I'm curious to know how killing civilians are a measure of defending ones-self. You do know that
the death squads rarely take on the US army...
Death squads? They are our brainchild to tackle the sunni resistance against the occupation
forces.
If we wernt hiding behind that green zone and those thousands of mercenaries they would have targeted and finished with
us a long time ago, faction or no faction.
Quote:
Japan(post ww2) comes to mind
Here some notes I found on how it went for the Japs:
".....MacArthur also intended to break up power concentrations by dissolving the zaibatsu and
other large companies, and by decentralizing the education system and the police. In a land
reform, concentrations in land ownership were removed.
Especially during the first half of the occupation, Japan's media was subject to a rigid
censorship of any anti-American statements and controversial topics such as the race issue.
The co-operation between the Japanese and the Allied powers worked relatively smooth. Critics
started to grow when the United States acted increasingly according to her self interests in the
Cold War, reintroduced the persecution of communists, stationed more troops in Japan, and wanted
Japan to establish an own self defence force despite the anti-war article in the constitution.
Many aspects of the occupation's so called "reverse course" were welcomed by conservative Japanese
politicians....."
I guess the Japs dint have much say..... so much for the relatively smooth Democracy....
You have got to understand, we were not in Japan to fleece them.
Our Intent there was unlike the one in present Iraq. We are the aggressors in Iraq.
You know how we drool for that Iraqi oil, right?
So comparing the two makes no sense and it shows how weak the argument is.
Here is what happened after:
".......With the peace treaty that went into effect in 1952, the occupation ended. Japan's Self
Defence Force was established in 1954, accompanied by large public demonstrations. Great public
unrest was also caused by the renewal of the US-Japan Security Treaty of 1960.
After the Korean War, and accelerated by it, the recovery of Japan's economy flourished. The
economic growth resulted in a quick rise of the living standards, changes in society and the
stabilization of the ruling position of the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP),......"
I guess after 1952, the Japs were now talking .....
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Yes I completely agree "foreign policy is conducted on the basis of self interest" but not on the
basis of "survival of the fittest" like you mentioned before.
.................
Repost :
.....................I do not know what your context is here, Fittest in what way? military?
manpower? wealth? health?
resources? market share? consumerism? intelligence index? educated mass? infrastructure?
geography?
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It is to ensure that your country has all of the above even if its at the expense of others. Thats
how it is currently conducted. Be it India, China, Russia or any other country.
World politics, I know is to ensure all of the above for oneself.........but not with a
policy of "survival of the fittest", thats for wild animals.
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I'll post you some links that puts India right there. here..you dont find this on CNN either .
Yep, they are calling it an occupation too.
LINK
LINK
other vids here
LINK
LINK
Will you open up that thread? Or are you going to say that these folks are misguided. Hey, they
are with you on Iraq and Afghanistan. Probably you guys share views on kashmir too. They do
mention 'hate'.
Here
http://www.samsloan.com/kashmir3.htm
we can go on posting links for and against this kashmir topic, it dosnt prove a thing.
"Seperation disputes...." this is what you compare with what we have done in Iraq? again it emphasizes my point.... a creation of an unwelcome western power.
.....but how does this match up with going 1000's of miles to attack another country under false
pretext which has caused us no harm based on your theory of "survival of the fittest" and
"preemptive wars of aggression just to rob it of its resources. Are Iraq and US neighbours
disputing a political seperation?
If India decided its tank was running dry and decided to attack Iran for its resources under false pretext, come back
here and look ...the thread should be open by then.
You comparisions are really very meaningless ones and silly.
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Please...you see letters like this from all sides.
Yes, I agree, so no point posting links they prove nothing.
You have to take it as true at face value or reject it completely as false.
That is why I come up with simplistic practical ideas like the one I suggested you try
with your neighbour? and just observe what he does? See if riles up on you or he just ignores you and goes up against
your third neighbour.
If he does that the you win this argument hands down and I am wrong.
Its basic principles that world politics is based on and not on survival of the
fittest.
BTW interesting letter you posted .....wonder how he feels now in 2007.
Has anyone told him it was the oil after all.
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Originally posted by hemzer
Finally, I agree here with you.... Iraqis lose....from the pillaging by the west.
Why Irans puppet? You think Iraqis cannot have their own identity?
They will not be given a chance. Much like the lebanese are not given a chance...e.g: rafiq hariri etc.Its not just the wests doing. Thats the propaganda that comes from the al-qaeda sort to further their cause. Its every one whos to blame not just the west.
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Iran and Iraq are neighbours and of course they will influence eachother in many ways then one.
Who gave us the right to judge that
You dont have the right to judge the US actions if Irans and Syrias doings in the region are not to be judged. What happens there affects our economy. Again...propaganda stuff from you.
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Why wrong? You agreed alqaeda has a reason to hate us and then we get bombed by Afganis.
So you think the reason they do that is because they like us over there?
They are def hating our presence there.
We have to go thru this again because it is the very essence of this thread which you are
disputing.
And you are wrong...read the rest of the thread. Like it was demonstrated(by breaking up the population demographically) that the majority has benefited from the war in Iraq...so it goes in Afghanistan.
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proxy for what? Who were they masaccaring and pillaging?
who is masacarring and pillaging anyway. Right now it looks like the 'resistance' as you call them are doing the masacarring.
About the proxy part. I dont think you jave enough knowledge/ability to understand since we have already been thru it. Lets leave it at that.
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Death squads? They are our brainchild to tackle the sunni resistance against the occupation
forces.
If we wernt hiding behind that green zone and those thousands of mercenaries they would have targeted and finished with
us a long time ago, faction or no faction.
I would have adressed this long ago if I thought you would bring this up so persisitently and not see the stupidity of this argument. I guess stupidity has no boundaries.
According to your reasoning they cannot get to the US due to the greenzone. So the alternative is to kill civilians? The same civilians the 'resistance' would be fighting for. You see any convoluted logic here?
Why exactly are the brave resistance killing civilians?
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I guess the Japs dint have much say..... so much for the relatively smooth Democracy....
So comparing the two makes no sense and it shows how weak the argument is.
Nope...the argument was that democracy can work even if imposed. It did so in Japan.
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I guess after 1952, the Japs were now talking .....
Yep I hope the US can leave Iraq too. With the supply of oil to our economies secure.
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World politics, I know is to ensure all of the above for oneself.........but not with a
policy of "survival of the fittest", thats for wild animals.
Well then we are wild. What does it take to convince you...killing of cicilians in war or by the insurgency? Sudan, Bosnia, Rawanda...etc...etc.
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Are Iraq and US neighbours
disputing a political seperation?
It depends if Kashmiris view Indian govt in Kashmir as occupation or not.
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You comparisions are really very meaningless ones and silly.
Comparing complex political situation to me and my neighbour is not silly but...the above is. Whatever
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Yes, I agree, so no point posting links they prove nothing.
Silly if you ask me
. Like you see your Ronn Cantu was flipflopping.Quote:
That is why I come up with simplistic practical ideas like the one I suggested you try
with your neighbour? and just observe what he does? See if riles up on you or he just ignores you and goes up against
your third neighbour.
As i was saying silly to compare the situations. But I dont blame you. Lacking knowledge of world politics and basic geography...one does have to resort to simplistic arguments.
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Its basic principles that world politics is based on and not on survival of the
fittest.
This is what I would refer to as coming from an Ignoramus Magnanimus. If this sentence were true...there would be no armies, war, hunger, poverty, injustice etc. However, all that exists. WHY?
Now dont compound your ridiculous arguments by saying that my neighbour and me are not hungry/fighting/unjust and thus nobody is hungry/fighting or some such.
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