Propaganda and war
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr B Hadad
This is where your statement is not consistent. So Israelis can can go back 2000 years to lay a claim, but the Arabs cant go back 50 years.
Which has a more immediate affect on current events?
Like Jake pointed out, the one to win the land will be the one to rule the land. This has been a fact since the beginning of time on this planet and I don't really think it will change anytime soon. All the Arab countries combined don't have the power to push Israel out, and that's the only reason Israel is still where it is.
The DIFFERENCE is however in how claim to a land is made. The conventional method is a war is fought between armies and the winner walks away with the trophy. This has been the case with ALL major wars fought to date. And this should be the same in the ME (don't have to remind you about the war Israel fought).
The forces that want to "wipe off Israel" from the face of the planet have figured out though that they're never going to be able to accomplish this fighting a REAL war. So what do they do? Use the most lethal tool known to mankind i.e. religion, find young brainwashable idiots AND direct them to kill a LOT of innocent civilians. They call this the "holy war"! BS! This isn't war, this is grade A terrorism. The difference to me is clear as day, I think you're having some difficulty with it though.
What you're trying to say is this is somehow justified given the circumstances. What I'm trying to say is that someone needs to come back to planet Earth. And realize that if this WERE to be used as a justification for terrorism, every person in the world would've been a terrorist because every religion/community/faction has been wronged at some point or another in history.
Save me the story on the west's role in spawning some of these groups, I'm well aware of that. Its a redundant statement that there are no angels on either side. The west however has moved on. And most importantly, it has accepted me and millions of others who dwell in it for who we are. Irrespective of my reglion, it does not threaten my beliefts or seek to impose dogma upon me. Its a society that has and continues to make a sustained effort to rid itself ofreligoius fundamentalism, segregation, fascism and so on and so forth. I don't have to surrender my self-respect to survive.
The fundamentalists on the other hand have none of these values on their roster, they'd rather be stuck in the dark agest because that's the only means to the "absolute power" end. Their philosophy of "What I said or your head!" is not for me. So pardon me for ignoring all of the historical misdeeds of the west and siding with them in the interest of my freedom and my family's future.
Its easy to take the moral high-ground from the comfort of a beautiful Toronto Sunday. The test comes when you're in Israel on a bus with some moron laden with explosives and his finger on the trigger. Ask yourself if you'd reason the way you do right now and try to understand his viewpoint.
I'm not going to respond to all the other points, you can re-read the above as a rebuttal to everything you've said.
Quote:
No, havent you heard in India we dont do much. But thats us. In face of foreign rule we produced pacisfist like Gandhi.
Out policy is to do nothing or do the least possible.
I figured I'd respond to this at least. You're really showing your depth by equating the emergence of Gandhi to a philosophy of inaction. Maybe you should drop that Hizb. book and read about the "actions" of Gandhi (FYI action isn't the equivalent of violence).
I do agree though we've waded into utter inaction as a nation since independence though. Its a sorry state we're in right now where we face the same terrorist threat as Israel that coninutes to escalate every single day and yet, our leaders don't do squat. Its a shame we don't act like Israel does.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azazf
I personally feel if we all mind our own businesses rather then poking noses into others affair we wold be better off.
Sorry, I never got around to responding to your post. At a high level though, I don't know if I can say much more to explain my position and perspective.
I'll respond to this one though. Maybe you don't feel this way, but this is my problem now. The attacks in India, the busts in Toronto, London and the states are all my problem. If the terrorists are allowed to get away with their agenda, its only a matter of time before someone I know or love will be caught up in this.
My focus isn't on Israel's war. I see that as part of a much bigger effort to preserve OUR way of life here. Foresight tells me its all connected. The fascists that threaten Israel aren't going to stop at victory there (hopefully we won't have to deal with that day ever). They'll come for us next. Israel's only a buffer between us and them. And I'd like that buffer to hold and emerge victorious.
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“Put them all in one plane and bomb them” may be possible in the west. In India and its surroundings where more than half a billion are Muslims it will be worse than Hitler’s pograms. Similarly, “winner takes it all” justification regarding Israel’s land grabbing will only boomerang, as can be seen now. When petroleum is exhausted, or stripped of their oil wealth, Arabs will be a more dangerous proposition. The oil wealth is acting like an opiate among the masses in the Arab world. All the militant groups inside India like naxalites, ULFA, Nagas etc. spring from poverty, unemployment etc.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ramar2005
“Put them all in one plane and bomb them” may be possible in the west. In India and its surroundings where more than half a billion are Muslims it will be worse than Hitler’s pograms.
What are you talking about? Who said that??
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Quote:
Originally posted by ramar2005
“Put them all in one plane and bomb them” may be possible in the west. In India and its surroundings where more than half a billion are Muslims it will be worse than Hitler’s pograms..
Please! A rhetorical mention about putting jihadists on a plane is NOT the same as putting ALL muslims on a plane. Are you nuts to suggest that its possible even in the west?
Quote:
Similarly, “winner takes it all” justification regarding Israel’s land grabbing will only boomerang, as can be seen now.
This will go on under different circumstances in pok, Taiwan, aksai chin etc. Land claims or 'rights' are largely theoretical until one can take and keep the land. World history and world maps are based on this fact. Like it or not...there are always the 'haves' and 'have-nots' and 'victors' and 'losers'. If you dont like the terminology we can quote Darwin instead...lets call it 'survival of the fittest'. Note its not 'survival of the morally rightest '
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All the militant groups inside India like naxalites, ULFA, Nagas etc. spring from poverty, unemployment etc.
Ok this is an apologist world view. All militancy in the world can be attributed to fight over resources(land, etc). However, at some point they cease being about equity and more about ideological supremacy. It was the same with communism. I think islamic facisism at that point. Note that all the suspects in the Uk plot come from reasonably well off households. Also note that the hijackers in 9/11 came from reasonably well off and/or affluent backgrounds. Bin Laden's privileged background is well documented. Similarly Ayman al-Zawahiri was born to a prominent middle class family in egypt.
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Dear BL
please see the excerpts below. I will be only too happy if Iam wrong. To read some of these lines is definitely unnerving. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish whether they are about a single group or the whole community
Threat of liquid bombs on airplanes
Oh well..no marks for guessing who these B******s are...wait for our apologists here
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Yup...all suspects arrested and lo and behold, they are "home grown" terrorists. No doubt in my mind that they are young, feeble minded, delusional youths, in their teens to mid 20's who have nothing better to do with their lives, no ambition to better themselves or the country they live in, no higher level of intelligence to understand that they are not prooving anything to anyone by blowing up aircrafts in mid air...idiots with no prospects in life, no morals or ethics and no respect for life....no wonder blowing stuff up sounds cool to them.
F*****g idiots. I say put them all in a plane and blow it up anyway. That way, they have fulfilled their own life destinies as that is what they were planning to do anyway...LEAVE EVERYONE ESLE OUT OF IT
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Now that's a pretty damn good idea
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CNN reporting...these ppl may have received training in Pakistan. Now why did I have to say that ????
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And they'll place the onus on us to 'understand' everything from abused childhoods to feelings of impotency. Obviously all the anti-west things they have been hearing from the community/relatives etc played no part in it.
Its time we understand what we are up against...and stop making excuses for their fascist/supremacist behaviour. Its not a simple regional conflict about palestine, iraq, afghanistan, chechnya, somalia, beruit etc.
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I second it...they are itching to be 'martyrs' anyway. There was someone on this board who mentioned and I paraphrase, 'speciality of muslims that they are willing to undergo suffering for their cause'. Until I pointed out that the crusaders did quite the same thing.
Some moderate! Its the kids of moderates like these who end up weapons training in Pakistan!
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I guess this is gonna be a part of our life from now-on...
one day an explosion here.. and another day somewhere else..
everyday something new is coming up...
I support "Pink Panther's" idea... just blow all of them up..
and the other thing that bothers me is.. why all the terrorist's r put away in jail for life... ???
where r all the encounter specialist's ????
are they born only in India???
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Hey Jake... guess what, I have some Jihadi scumbags and their sympathizers PM'ing me.... looks like the "heat" is getting to them
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GLOBAL TERRORISM-Scientific- corporate approach required
Why is it that only 1 particular community has problems with other people ?
Anywher on this planet , wherever it exists they are at war with somebody.
Is'nt it time now even the great philanthrophists take serious note of this problem and divert or dedicate some part of their generosity in researching the cause, and finding remedy of it?
Atleast some portion of their charity should be spent in awkening the human conscious of the sane persons of the same community.
Media has to be actively involved in constantly brain washing these minds, reminding them of "LIVE AND LET LIVE"
This universal problem is more serious threat than any of the combined threat of any medical disease existing on this planet
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Let us see what the imams and other religious leaders have to say to this.
I bet ... it is a small murmur and that is it.
It is time to stand up and shout, enough is enough... and take a strong strong stance against this insanity.
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and they are F******* JIHADIS... that need to be crushed...no questions asked...First isolate them, extract information from them and then *snap*..make them disappear. When will the F****** British Govt learn to be non-nonse tough with these B*****S ? Oh I forgot...The Labor party needs support of these perverts to remain in power ? Did I hear someone say "vote-bank" politics ???
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There is a danger of stigmatising a whole community," Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain, said.
"We applaud the action of the police in taking appropriate action to avert a tragedy...(but) we should not allow certain sections of the media and politicians to use the opportunity to carry out a diatribe against us," he told the 'Guardian' daily.
Ranin..the rantings of a silly apologist...I wonder where the resident apologists of CD are hiding...Oh let me guess, trying to blame this on Narendra Modi-atrocities in Chechnya-Kashmir..blah blah blah !
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These guys missed their rendezvous with “65 (I am not sure of numbers) Jannat ki hoors)
ALI, Abdula, Ahmed
Date of birth (DOB): 10/10/1980
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
ALI, Cossor
DOB: 04/12/1982
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
ALI, Shazad, Khuram
DOB: 11/06/1979
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
HUSSAIN, Nabeel
DOB: 10/03/1984
Address: London, E4
HUSSAIN, Tanvir
DOB: 21/02/1981
Address: Leyton, London, E10
HUSSAIN, Umair
DOB: 09/10/1981
Address: London, E14
ISLAM, Umar
DOB: 23/04/1978
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
KAYANI, Waseem
DOB: 28/04/1977
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
KHAN, Assan, Abdullah
DOB: 24/10/1984
Address: London, E17
KHAN, Waheed, Arafat
DOB: 18/05/1981
Address: London, E17
KHATIB, Osman, Adam
DOB: 07/12/1986
Address: London, E17
PATEL, Abdul, Muneem
DOB: 17/04/1989
Address: London, E5
RAUF, Tayib
DOB: 26/04/1984
Address: Birmingham
SADDIQUE, Muhammed, Usman
DOB: 23/04/1982
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
SARWAR, Assad
DOB: 24/05/1980
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
SAVANT, Ibrahim
DOB: 19/12/1980
Address: London, E17
TARIQ, Amin, Asmin
DOB: 07/06/1983
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
UDDIN, Shamin, Mohammed
DOB: 22/11/1970
Address: Stoke Newington, London
ZAMAN, Waheed
DOB: 27/05/1984
Address: London, E17
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We need this plane sooner than thought.
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dfwrp..you want to drive out our Holy warriors out of business ? FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=
"
BTW... why do I get the feeling that this thing has not ended...Something will happen very soon ? Anyone agree with me ?
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Apologists at work !
British Muslims write to Blair
August 12, 2006 18:59 IST
Some of the leading British Muslims have urged Prime Minister Tony Blair to step up efforts in bringing an end to the Middle East violence, alleging that the Iraq war and UK's "failure" to use its influence to end Israeli attacks on civilians are fuelling extremism at home.
In an open letter to Blair, they charged that current foreign policy of the government fans the flames of extremism and may put British citizens at risk of attack, both in the UK and abroad.
"The debacle of Iraq and now the failure to do more to secure an immediate end to the attacks on civilians in the Middle East not only increases the risk to ordinary people in that region, it is also ammunition to extremists who threaten us all," The Independent newspaper quoted the letter as saying.
"We urge the prime minister ...to show the world that we value the lives of civilians wherever they live and whatever their religion," the letter said adding that "Such a move would make us all safer."
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Apologists at work !
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/12uk.htm?q=np&file=.htm
No ones gonna believe these bull s**t supporting extremism. How come the british people of serbian origin living in UK are not blowing themselves up because of UK's support to Kosovo?
or why are christians in UK not blowing themselves up to make sure UK cuts of diplomatic relations with Islamic countries which do not offer freedom of religion for christians in middle east(e.g. Saudi Arabia)?
UK is a democratic country and there are democratic ways and means to show the unhappiness against a government's foreign policy.
The funny thing is Islamic Jihadi literature was being distributed and taught in British mosques well before UK got involved in Iraq.
This is about Islamic Facism - an extreme form of Islam where the followers dream that someday Islam will conquer the whole earth and all 'infidel's will be purged from the earth.
If you look at their literature you will notice that the 'freedom' they enjoy, in the west, to hold their anti-west activities are to be taken full advantage of, in pursuit of making the world muslim.
Also note that the US embassy bombings in Africa took place long before iraq and afghanistan. Even if the US govt was the target, Africans formed the overwhelming number of victims
The kids of these apologists are the ones who are likely to kill their countrymen. The apologists are equally responsible, as the jihadists, for fascist islam coming to strength . The apologists are only the political wing of the jihadists. What exactly is the need for a 'muslim brotherhood'. To me it sounds as fascist and supremacist as the 'aryan brotherhood'.
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Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 14-08-06 11:11:15
Ramar..a very good compilation indeed. So what in these lines make you feel unnerved ?
Is it unnerving that ppl all over the world are seeing what the JIHADIS's are doing ?
Is it unnerving that ppl are seeing what the so called "moderates" are in reality ?(as Jaked put i eloquoently..the political wing of the Jihadists ?)
If thats unnerving then I guess Glenn Frey said it succiently..
"The heat is on..the heat is on !"
I would really love more acts by these Jihadis... when one is on the path of destruction, one only accelerates..... 
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