Propaganda and war
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azazf
How can you be so sure that was the case.For instance the Qana bombings not one hezz guy died, which makes me believe they werent there..
So the evil jooz were actually trying to kill those 28 ppl to make oil from their remains? BTW. the israelis have admitted their mistake without reservation. Again...innocents die in war.
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When you say the west are you referring to the government or the people living in these countries, cuz the views of the government are quite different from the people.
Cuz/ wuz/ could be....people in islamic countries are more into the beheading. Hey, madonna recently(yesterday?) had a show in rome. the Vatican objected sure...to her mock 'crucifiction' on the cross in its neighborhood. You hear any calls for beheading anyone? Compare to the violence while the drawings of prophet mohammed were made public. Dont even try to draw a parallel when it comes to intropection in the west and EVEN in India!
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No matter what you do in todays world it is going to attract criticism, we see so many people opposing the narmada project when we all know it is for the greater good for gujrat maharashtra and MP.
Only the poor islamic 'victims' never take the opportunity to take a look at what is fuelling the criticisms.
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Thats not true either. There was plenty of opposition and criticism from the arab league and the arab countries about nasrallah's position when it all started. . But after seeing all the destruction by israel their position shifted towards Nasrallah. .
pfft! You and I know its more due to the shia/sunni schism...there was no 'plenty' of criticism. NOT at all the level of criticism the US had to face in many WESTERN capitals on its bombardment of iraq. They(arab countries) have recanted due to fear of their own people(dominated by supremacist bigots)
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Actually they expelled two parliamentarians and put them behind bars for saying sympathetic things about abu musab zarqawi in Jordan.
2 whole people. Good for them
. But where is the muslim outrage? Or the famous 'muslim street' when all these killings are going on in IraqQuote:
Do you think Saddam killed as many people during his regime as have been killed after iraq was invaded. I am starting to think Iraq was better off with Saddam then the state its in right now..
LOL! Spoken like a true apologist for the supremacists. Did you even try to look???
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html
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Not as much as you and I would want to but you see articles on al jazeera everyt now and then.
Give us a number please. Is it anywhere near the number of documentaries in the west about Israels atrocities or the muslim suffering and how we should understand the pople of muslim countries and cultures? Understanding is a two way street. Calling for 'beheading people' is not a good way to foster understanding
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I personally feel if we all mind our own businesses rather then poking noses into others affair we wold be better off.
Good idea. Start preaching that to those who want to bomb london,mumbai, madrid and toronto.
OR is that a threat? Clean up your own house...else have it cleaned for you.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azazf
By the way was there a particular reason behind you editing my post?
Let me respond to this one first. That was done in error, I actually meant to reply to your post. Sorry about that. Didn't realize it till you pointed it out.
I'll respond to the rest later.
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Are you there?
The instant he saw army officials stride towards his front door, Yair Goldwasser knew something terrible had happened. The Israeli citizen and brother of captured soldier Ehud Goldwasser braced for the worst.
"When they told us he's not dead ... we were very happy," the 26-year-old said yesterday during a news conference at the Royal York Hotel.
"It's a very weird situation. We knew he's not dead. We know it's a matter of time before he comes home."
Sponsored by the United Jewish Appeal to speak in Toronto, Goldwasser was on hand to bring a human narrative to Israel's story of the current war.
His brother, 31-year-old Ehud, a reservist in the Israeli army, was kidnapped with soldier Eldad Regev, 26, on July 12 when Hezbollah guerillas attacked an Israeli patrol unit.
A third captive Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, 19, was captured by Hamas near the Gaza border on June 25.
Speaking calmly and with a slight accent, Goldwasser said he and his family want the world to know first-hand how terrorism affects Israeli life.
"People should understand what it means for an Israeli soldier to be captured (by a group) that is breaking every international law there is."
Goldwasser described the atmosphere in Israel, specifically Nahariya, the city where he lives.
"It's like a ghost town now," he said, comparing its usual mood to Toronto's busy streets. "Everywhere you look, you see a house that's been hit."
Asserting he directs no anger at his brother's captors or the Lebanese people, Goldwasser said he doesn't see an end to the war without the return of the captives.
"It's a very personal thing for the country of Israel," he said. "Israel would never leave them behind."
Goldwasser called for a peaceful end to the conflict.
"I just want to see Hezbollah being dismantled and I'd like to see the Lebanese government taking control of Lebanon," he said. "I'd like to have a quiet border for a change."
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/08/09/1725951-sun.html
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"Progress comes from deviation".
On a side note if anybody finds my comments or posts offensive or irritating please ignore it and if that still bothers you; please write to me and I will demonstrate.
Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 09-08-06 19:13:21
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Posted on: 09-08-06 19:13:21
My... Bless u Isreal for expanding the conflict...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4778133.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4778133.stm</a>
pardon my sadistic nature...but every Jihadi killed in Lebanon makes the world a safer place... something like killing vermins...
So as Nasrallah said "I will make Southern Lebanon a graveyard"....there is a small saying in Hindi...
"Doosron ka Kabr khodne wale, khud usmein dafn ho jaate hain" 
Oh and BTW...all ya apologists of the Jihadi's....you know what to do 
Now back to CNN..Wolf Blitzer....
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I am having a lot of trouble with quoting other peoples posts, line breaks etc...so sorry about the post below if it doesnt seem well formatted.
Is it the broswer (firefox) or some other reason?
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueLobster
I'm not addressing any specific posts, just trying to get a glimpse of your position. Not sure if you have one or you're just making counter-points.
And if the latter, I'm trying to understand why, which may shed some light on the former (i.e. your position)
Read on.
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Maybe. But lets fast forward to the present. The fact is that Israel does exist. Regardless of whether nations like Iran or Syria or other accept
it or choose to put a blindfold over their eyes.
This is where your statement is not consistent. So Israelis can can go back 2000 years to lay a claim, but the Arabs cant go back 50 years.
Which has a more immediate affect on current events?
You ask for fast forward when it is makes your point, else it is a trip on a time machine back 2000 years.
The problem with Israelis existence at the place where it is, is that they have set the bar back to such a long time back in history that it sets such a bad precedent for the future (Just like the idea of preemption) .
Because as per Jake's statement that people take whatever they can take and hold on to it.
Well, that might be the truth, but we have to stop doing it at some point and evolve out of it.
We are living in 2006, not 1006.
I personally never had a problem with Israels existence, whatever its claims, at its current position in the middle east.
Why would I begrudge a group of people of their basic rights?
The problem for most people comes as to where it is located.
I see one guy here saying the "hypocrisy of the Arab countries....why dont they accomodate the Pals".
One could easily turn that around and say that to the Europeans.
For it was their persecution through out the centuries that preceeded modern Israel. Europe's fault, they pay for it, not the Arabs.
As I said, its such a tiny nation that We here in canada or US could easily accomodate them.
Millions of Jews are already living happily in both these countries. And we have enough space to let in millions more....
thanks to out liberal immigration policy.
Just for a perspective here is a comparison of its size with India.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/india.html
Quote:
Assume for a second though that Israel did not exist where it does OR all Israelis relocated to the South Pacific.
Is there going to be peace in the world and are the terrorists going to take up farming? Nonsense!
Extremism by definition stops only at utter dominance or destruction. There are no compromises.
Israel's only a excuse/catalyst to a MUCH bigger agenda! We would've gotten to where we are today even if Israel had never existed....
Actually The Brits had a plan to relocate them to Africa. I am just imagining what would have happened if that plan was realized.
If Israel didnt exist in Arabia, I dont know what would have happened. thats a hypothetical and difficult to answer.
Since arabs have shown a penchant for fighting and being disunited, I would guess they would have been fighting each other.
But thats different than fighting the west. They could have gone the other way, had western countries followed your point No. 2,
2) The West must pour support and finances into moderate Islam and nations that embrace a live-and-let-live policy.
Although this is no different that any other place in the world. Europeans were at the same position till WWII.
They fought and fought and fought will they literally exhausted. The west got to the modern age as we experience now
after many many centuries of wars. Democracy took hold after 100s of years of give and take between the monarchy and people.
these things dont happen overnight and they cannot be forced down peoples' throats.
Also, note please that why extremism came to the Arab world.
I dont believe or pretend that they all suddenly woke up one fine morning and decided to go after the west and its interests.
I wont bother about the history after WW1, you can read all about it, but I will briefly mention about the two players now, Iran and Hezbollah.
Whether you and I like it or not , but western meddling for the last 100 years takes almost equal share of the blame.
The persians are no arabs and it follows that they are no fools. You know Iran actually had a democracy in 1951.
The only problem was that the prime minister then (Mohammed Mossadegh) tried to nationalize the Oil industry.
The response from Brit, USA was predictable. A few years later the democratically elected govt was overthrown and
the shah was restored to power only years after Iran had become a Contitutional monarchy. although the shah had a modern outlook, he was also despotic and in time he pissed of enough people in his country. Support from the west didnt help. The Iranians needed something to hold on to.
The Mullahs came to power. Islamic fundamentalism got a new player.
Read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
The other player now, Militant Hezbollah came into being only after Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982.
Its social arm arose because the central govt doesnt care for the shites. It couldnt care for itself.
Hezz could. It could defend it's people and it could also take care of its day to day needs.
So, history shows us that anytime west has intervened, it has actually made matters worse.
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1) The west MUST come down heavy handedly on the zealots who want absolute dominance and the fanatics who support them.
If Israel is the extremist's excuse to wage a holy war, Israel should be the west's excuse to stop that war dead in its tracks.
The west should also make sure that Israel vacate ALL of occupied territories.
ALL and at the same time. no piecemeal giveaways.
Get yer illegal settlements etc.. (which most Israelis are very much opposed to)
and get back to your pre 67 borders at the very least.
Heavy handed and even handed, please.
Quote:
I hope Israel gets all the support it needs to rid itself of this terrorist menace. And I hope that happens in India and Africa and
other places as well. Tip-toeing around the issue has done no good so far and its time to attack this head - on.
No, havent you heard in India we dont do much. But thats us. In face of foreign rule we produced pacisfist like Gandhi.
Out policy is to do nothing or do the least possible.
As per one of our PM, "We think about it, and we decide not to decide".....PV N Rao.
The extremists just get tired and leave.
Think about this, the time it takes to fight off a group is the same time it takes to piss them off with inaction.
just kidding.
Quote:
3) There better be some freaking good research going on to find alternatives to oil to keep the planet running.
When that dependecy in the equation is removed, 90% of the problems will solve themselves...
Good lord, I hope so.
But I am not so sure. With Oil companies making 10s of billions in profit, whats the impetus for alternative sources?
They would probably be happier as oil becomes more scarce and the price goes up.
In conclusion, I would like to say that extremism is a symptom not the cause.
Terror is a tactic, not an ideology.
Islamic fundamentalism is the ideology.
People gravitate to extreme ideologies if they have some reason.
People turn to being militant leftists is South America.
In Arabia they cloak themselves with their religion.
They just act as a rallying cry, but inside that cloak , the desire of the extremists is some sort of freedom.
To be left alone. If we still have trouble with that, then we might look into ourselves first.
Its the act of someone fighting back that we dont like. The response would have been same if Arabs had
chosen any other ideology or tactic.
My self interests should not clash with that of the other people. Simple as the Rights-Duties analogy.
My self interest is to actually see this doesnt happen, not because of moral reasons, but practical ones.
I know when I overstep my bounds, it can come back and bite me.
My values are not those of an occupier.
I wont support these values as much as I wouldnt support religious fundamentalism.
As much as the arabs are at fault for not embracing modernism, Israelis and we are hardly angels.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
My 'Hammering' on one aspect is bewcause I feel its is not getting adequate coverage in the media. If you have not figured out by now,
I am totally biased towards Israels victory in this conflict. My problem is not that I am biased but that the media is.
That was my purpose of the post. I hope thats clear as mud to you.
Yep, you dont like muslims. Gotcha!
I got a sense of it the way you whipped out 639 AD. You know that muslims took Jersusalem from Byzantium.
And that by that time not many jews were left there anyway, having been driven out/murdered etc.. before that.
Please contact the Roman senator in Judea and Samaria for your grievances as it were the romans who were resposible
for the large scale expulsion of Jews after Ad70.
See how absurd this gets once we start going 20 centuries back.
The worst persecution were already done before the Arabs took control.
Even worse was to come for the Jews in Europe during their not so brief sojourn.
Quote:
Originally posted by jake3d
The Israelis original claim to the area was religious+historical. Their current claim is their ability to hold onto it.
Without their ability to hold onto the land, any other claim would just be theoretical. Regardless, you and Azazf are
the ones concerned with 'rights' and 'wrong' claim to land. I have no illussions about the land 'belonging' to anyone except the one who can hold onto it.
Zionism is about as secular as the Ram mandir movement (no offence to any of its supporters).
Its basic principle (founding a state) is secular. So in essence it works that way.
It adheres to secular principle in its day to day working (i.e. modern Israel).
It is same as when the BJP comes to power , it has to follow a secular consitution,
yet it derives inspiration from religious ideas termed conveniently as nationalism.
The intent for it to be a jewish state at it's ancient homeland is anything but secular.
Again it is 2006, not 1006.
We are trying to get out of the "might is right" thing.....even if it is out natural state.
Although, it seems it gonna take a little bit more time.
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One last thing. i came across this book. I have yet to order it, but it is a study f suicide bombings and in general whether they are motivated by religioun or simply nationalism. One of the most weird stats in the book is that
"Hezbollah suicide bombers in the period 1982-1986 were 71% Christian, 21% Communist/Socialist, 8% Islamist (204-07)."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812973380/sr=8-1/qid=1155482470/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-5121600-2908649?ie=UTF8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terrorism
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr B Hadad
Well, that might be the truth, but we have to stop doing it at some point and evolve out of it.
We are living in 2006, not 1006.
There has to be COLLECTIVE concensus on that. That cannot come from only one side. we have come to this point due to bigotry on all sides. However, going forward...it should not be the islamic fascists who take us beyond 2006. THAT is the point I am making. There can be no 'evolving out of it' under the islamic facsists...only going backward.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr B Hadad
As I said, its such a tiny nation that We here in canada or US could easily accomodate them.
I dont think anybody has to accomodate the jews anywhere. If they cannot hold on to the land they'll be out. Again I put my support with them due to the threat I see from the islamic fascist to democracies everywhere. You are dancing around with historical occurences to justify one side. I am only concerned with 'what now'. Do you think that militant islamic ideology will be satisfied if the 'jews' are accomodated in Canada? I dont think so. If an aryan nation is established in missisipi...the white supremacists are only going to be emboldened. Whats your take on this?
Since you have taken paions to study history...You think Hitler took appeasement as weakness or did it lay grounds for all of us to 'evolve'?
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If Israel didnt exist in Arabia, I dont know what would have happened. thats a hypothetical and difficult to answer.
Look at my response above and give it a try.
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Democracy took hold after 100s of years of give and take between the monarchy and people.
these things dont happen overnight and they cannot be forced down peoples' throats..
Neither can islam be forced down peoples throats. I have no problem if their conversions are carried out non violently. I dont care if the whole world is under islam if they can nonviolently convince the rest of us that its 'right' for all of us. Nobody in this world is 'left alone'. That is pure bullshit and you know it if you think beyond that moralistic reasoning of yours. We all share resources and as such are bound to step on each others toes.
Quote:
Also, note please that why extremism came to the Arab world.
I dont believe or pretend that they all suddenly woke up one fine morning and decided to go after the west and its interests..
What now?
is my question. Appeasement seems to be your answer. Appeasing hitler did not work...nor will appeasing bin laden and ilk.
Quote:
The Mullahs came to power. Islamic fundamentalism got a new player
blah blah....
So, history shows us that anytime west has intervened, it has actually made matters worse..
Your point is that the arabs and muslims are extremists for a reason. I hold both sides guilty(and by extension all of humanity) for the current state. Question again is... what now? If extremism is appeased will it quench its hunger for dominance...I think the answer is a RESOUNDING NO. What is your take?
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The west should also make sure that Israel vacate ALL of occupied territories.
ALL and at the same time. no piecemeal giveaways
Get yer illegal settlements etc.. (which most Israelis are very much opposed to)
and get back to your pre 67 borders at the very least.
Heavy handed and even handed, please.
Its called appeasement if under threat of war. It will only embolden terrorists...see above. I agree with you completely if this is a political solution. No Hamas or hezbollah...or complete disarmament of the same must happen simultaneously.
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Terror is a tactic, not an ideology.
Do you want me to show you how the extremist quote/interpret the Koran to justify this tactic and make it an ideology? You know this statement is Bullshit.
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Its the act of someone fighting back that we dont like. The response would have been same if Arabs had
chosen any other ideology or tactic.
I honestly have no problem with that. I am not debating their tactics at all. I only want democracy to win.
At one point after all the 'justifications' and apologising...one has to see what the end game of the sides are. What is the 'end game' of extremist Islam? Can you elaborate? I think you know what the end game is as well as I. So knowing the endgame you still apologise for them? Tells me that you are comfortable living under their 'rules'.
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As much as the arabs are at fault for not embracing modernism, Israelis and we are hardly angels.
You are so obsessed with 'rights' and 'wrongs'. I think its relative. Like I say everyone is to blame.
Question again. What now?
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Yep, you dont like muslims. Gotcha!.
Gotcha Wrong
. I dont like fanatic Christians, Hindus or Muslims. Right now the fanatic Muslims are more of a threat to me than anyone else.However, I know you wish I would just say I HATE MUSLIMS. I'm sorry...not so. I'm against what happened to the muslims in gujrat...and I've said so openly on this board. I hate the Klan and the 'aryan brotherhood' 'catholic brotherhood'...or any other brotherhood who want to impose their ideas over the world by violent means. To me its just like communism...where one hat is made to fit all. Sorry that hats just not me
!I am quite consistent and clear. You are dancing all over the place due to your bias.
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The worst persecution were already done before the Arabs took control.
Even worse was to come for the Jews in Europe during their not so brief sojourn.
Dont give a rats ass. My 'whipping' out 639 ad was to show that there were jews in that location 'before' the arabs. Not that the roman prefect killed/massacred jews. Or that the arabs killed them. The arabs could hold the land for a preiod of time and I am not going to deny that it was 'their' land when thry could hold it. 'Right' to land is your obsession not mine.
Sorry I'm not a evangalist fanatic. I dont care who the 'chosen people' are. I care about what happens to me when one side wins. Thats the only reason i choose sides. If the extremist islam wins....I'm done for. If extremist Zionism wanted to dominate western society and make it a jewish one...I'd pick on them instead. Same goes for Christianity or Hinduism or the communist.
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Zionism is about as secular as the Ram mandir movement (no offence to any of its supporters).
So is islam. Read the Koran for more info. I'll post links if you want. The bible(old testament) has supremacist crap too. However, militant christianity is not a threat to democracy and secularism as militant islam. Thats my only point.
At this point Zionists and hindu supremacists like the RSS OR the opus dei are not bombing subways in Mumbai, Madrid and UK. When they do you'll see me bashing them on this forum
I am not siding with ANY of the fanatics on the basis of 'right' and 'wrong'. My self-interest is my only guiding priciple and it is not prejudiced by historical or religious occurances. I hold secular democracy as the basic 'human right' that can ensure that all religions,races tc can coexist. A Secular democracy IS my self-interest...even if I choose to convert to islam/hinduism or buddhism.
You are repeatedly apologising for islamic ones by justifying their actions with historical greviances(real or perceived).
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We are trying to get out of the "might is right" thing.....even if it is out natural state.
Although, it seems it gonna take a little bit more time.
I agree...however... You think this 'evolution' is going to happen under a democracy or under a supremacist agenda? Lets say it was not 'islamic facism' that the world was now facing but 'aryan supremacy'. You think we would be able to give in to all their demands and then talk about evolving. You really see that happenning?
Stop apologising and start thinking. Any 'evolution' to higher levels of understanding is more likely under a secular democracy than islamic/christian/hindu/jewish totalitarism. Right now Islamic facism is the threat.
The sides we choose will dictate what we can live with. For all your 'liberal' talk your bias shows clearly. Theres a term for well-meaning people who are blinded by a combination of bias and 'morals'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
Binladen would refer to you as the same.
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